I just find it odd nobody mentions this. Moore suffered an eerily similar loss to a veteran nobody gave much of a chance to and his life spiraled downhill afterwards leading to an early death. And Panama Lewis worked Duran's corner as well. Strange.

Are you insinuating that Panama Lewis was behind the car accident that killed him?

Panama Lewis was married to Duran's sister at one time.

That is a pretty bizarre coincidence. Even more bizarre that one was orchestrated and the other wasn't.

Disgusting fight.

Not going to comment on whether Panama Lewis cheated in this one. He may have. He has for others.

I will say that Duran openly cheated though. Cuz he did.

Are you referring to the thumb to the eye?

Prod has always had issues with this masterpiece.

Word. People always masterbate to Duran though, so it's usually glossed over.

Yes. And the constant lacing of a one-eyed fighter. And the thousands of vicious nut and hip shots.

The corrupt or inept ref should be hanged publicly.

I'd love to have a look at those gloves though.

Fight should have been stopped way earlier kind of a sick display of violence.

I agree with you on this Prod, it is a disgusting fight to watch. It makes the foul fest last week on showbox look tame.

Co-sign on everything Prod's said.

Panama was behind the thumbing in the eye incident. If you look closely, the thumb part of Duran`s glove was missing

no
I think he's comparing
Resto's chances of beating Collins
to those of
a has beens
against a fighter with
a dozen or so fights

the Canadian Conspiracy

Duran/Moore is everything that is great about Boxing. I'm going to watch it again tonight. A beautiful, beautiful fight.

yes it was
a night I won't forget

If Duran or any other fighter is employing dirty tactics, is it cheating? If so, does that mean that Hopkins, Casamayor, Holyfield, and even Ali are cheaters? They are doing it in plain view, just leaving it up to the refs to stop them.

If so, is that different than cheating in a more covert way like Resto and the gloves or Mosley and roids? I am not talking about the gravity of the consequences, just the actual rule breaking.

Certainly the dirty tactics are part of boxing some would argue. I am not stirring the pot with a specific agenda with this question, just really interested in hearing whether guys that are a little dirty are essentially cheaters.

I think so-called "covert" cheating like removing padding from gloves and putting plaster on your wraps and steroid use is worse than fouling.

Of the three I think tampering with your gloves wraps is the worst.

Steroid use is cheating, but in my view not as bad as glove tampering. Other disagree as we saw in the past with the Margarito and Mosley thread, but my view is that steroids make you stronger which can assist you (or may hinder you) but I feel glove/handwrap tampering is like giving you a weapon. I think there is a more direct benefit by having gloves/handwraps tampered with.

I don't think I have explained it well enough so I'll give an example to hopefully clarify:

Would you rather be hit by a strong guy with a Nerf bat or an average strength guy with a baseball bat?

I think there is a difference between rough tactics and trying to maim the other man. The frequency with which Duran fouled that night (even when Moore was pretty much helpless in front of him) is also disturbing.

Duran aint gonna tickle you in there.

I actually agree with both sides here.

IMO that sort of rough shit is a part of boxing. Sometimes a guy gets down and dirty, gets away with it and wins because of it. Sandy Saddler practically took Willie Pep into a back alley in their fights. He might never have caught up to him if he wasn't elbowing, butting, thumbing and doing all the nasty shit he had to do, and always did to slow down the ultimate master boxer. You want to talk about dirty Harry Greb did shit to his opponents that would have made cats in the worst slums and ghettos in the country cry just watching it. He worked Gene Tunney so bad the ring was covered in Tunney's blood. That's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

That said, it does bother me when people ignore the fact that Duran didn't just win with aggression and the sweet science. He broke one off in Davey Moore and probably should not have gotten away with the things he was doing. You read articles and get people's remembrances and everyone ignores the dirty stuff he did. I think that's wrong. It does grate on me when a narrative that fans construct reshapes the facts.

For example to this day I get pissed when I think about how most people act when reminiscing about Chico-JLC 1. To me that victory is as tainted as it gets with Chico deliberately spitting his shit out getting all that time. He basically pulled a bitch move to avoid getting knocked out then and there. Most folks scratch their heads and act like it was an accident when it is clear as day that the second time he went down he deliberately spit his shield out. Well at the end of the day that worked out for him. Sometimes a fighter has to get down and dirty to get that W.

K X P

I don't deny that Duran used dirty tactics in this and other fights. He laced the hell out of Viruet's eyes and carried him the distance to inflict as much punishment as he could. Manos De Piedra was a nasty mother fucker, and I love it.

I can't even enjoy Chico/JLC 1, very rarely do I even watch it. It's too heartbreaking to see Castillo get screwed and too conflicting to watch Corrales act like a gladiator and a whimpering bitch simultaneously. As Boxing fans, we are used to bullshit endings, but not in wars like that. Decisions are one thing, but Castillo got raped that night and the rematch was just in every way.

Anyone with an extensive list of favorites has fighters on it that weren't shy to bending rules. Joe Frazier slammed Ali's kidneys like a heavy bag and Ali relentlessly held the back of every opponents head. It's not a cheer leading competition in there, I'm sure in hindsight, Duran wishes he would have just kicked Leonard in the balls. I do too.

Why stop there? Maybe we should just call him the hands of feathers and assume that his gloves were loaded for over a hundred fights. Looking back, it's certainly possible that Duran was a powerless cheater. In his next fight, Marvin hagler's face got rearranged as well. Hearns is just lucky he never got hit with the bricks in his gloves. It's not like he had the velocity or technique on his punches to generate that type of power. Well Done!


I'd like to see a reincarnated Duran come back at Heavyweight and do this to Wlad.

I have never watched that fight since. Like you, it grates on me to hear all of the warrior accolades bestowed on Corrales. Warriors don't do that shit. There is an honor among warriors and he didn't hold up his end of the deal. I find it comical that people point to the Freitas fight as to when the "crafty" Corrales learned to spit out the mouthpiece. So he was copying Freitas? Good Lord. Weeks can go fuck himself with a spiked dildo.

This is some pretty hardcore irony to be lost on you guys. It's alright, even manly, to bend the rules in a one-sided route when your man is borderline helpless in front of you, but a bitch move to bend them to give yourself an extra few seconds to recover so you can reenter the fray? I don't even know that this requires any elucidation. If you condone Duran you can't condemn Corrales, it really is that simple.

As far as behind-the-scenes vs. out in the open, it's a pretty interesting question. The thing is, rule-bending openly (rabbit-punching, low blows, holding-and-hitting) carries with it the possibility of losing points or being disqualified. Ask Barrera against JMM. The problem is that refs aren't anywhere near strict enough, so you have guys like Ali, Jimmy Young, Hopkins, Ruiz, getting away with stuff their entire career without a single penalty. I mean, has Shane ever been deducted for rabbit punches? Besides which, the stuff you can do in full view like lacing, low blows, thumbing, etc is detrimental, but nothing like loading your gloves, which should be considered assault. Duran-Moore is an extreme example, and also went on way too long.

I haven't condoned Duran so am I OK to condemn Corrales?

I like rough infighters, if that makes me a hypocrite, so be it. Corrales lost that fight, plain and simple. He got KTFO. Davey Moore would have needed an automatic weapon. Froch's behavior in the Dirrell fight didn't bother me in the least and Andre's made me vomit. It is true that Duran can do no wrong in my eyes, and it always will be.

Yes. So it is decreed.

LOL Pretty emotional response. Took longer than I thought.

You can pretend like this thread is out of line all you want. Anyone who wants to argue the opposite point just has to mention the crook who was working the corner.

Never called him a powerless cheater or questioned his ability (you know that), just that when a guy like Panama Lewis is in his corner, everyone has a reason to suspect something less than honorable may have gone down.

There's no proof, so you win. Nuthug away!



Yeah. I read about the fight before I ever saw it. Every article treated Duran like God. "Brilliant" this, and "Masterful" that. When I finished watching it I felt sick to my stomach. It's a despicable performance.

I get the whole "if ya ain't cheating, you ain't trying" thing, but this goes far beyond that. He already had a huge edge when he stuck his thumb into Moore's eye. Lacing a blinded man? Duran had the fight won and he just fouled more. Moore is trapped against the ropes, hopelessly beaten and Duran is still raking his eyes and blasting him on the hips and balls?

Meanwhile that cock sucker ref does nothing.

I can't understand respecting that performance and I REALLY can't understand actually enjoying it.

That's all I've got to say about it. It comes out about once a year.

Cool thread though. Never knew about the Panama Lewis connection.

I can understand being less bothered when the result of the fight wasn't really hampered. But that has nothing to do with Corrales being a bitch (he is all that is badass...and whatever you believe about the mouthpiece he could have just stayed on the floor...he spit it out so that he could go out and eat some more) or Duran being manly (obviously he is...but the Moore fight was more about sadism than anything).

The fact that Lewis and Duran were essentially family is the reason that Duran cited he would never fight Pryor. At least he said that in an interview.

He obviously was a warrior besides that one bitch incident. Even coming back a minute later was crazy. But spitting out his mouthpiece was every bit as feminine as when Freitas did it to him and there was nothing remotely manly about it.

Same here. Horrible stuff





Mark's endlessly repeated view of that fight is really tiresome.

Yes Chico intentionally spit out the mouthpiece to buy time. Yes that is cheating. Yes he was basically KO'd and Castillo was robbed of a historic win. I completely agree up to that point, so any Castillo fans are 100% justified in feeling robbed.

But to call him a bitch is ludicrous. He was 10 rounds into arguably the most punishing fight of all time. He's just been pretty much Ko'd by the shortest, sickest left hook ever. Twice. And he cheats to buy himself time to get back in there AND KEEP THE FIGHT GOING. And he doesn't tie up and try to stink the rest of the round out, but goes STRAIGHT INTO THE POCKET AND STARTS BLASTING.

Yes, the guy is obviously a total bitch.

I missed it earlier, Duran nuthugger? Guilty as charged. You hate him and that's cool too. As for pretending, lets just overlook Hopkins tactics, Holyfield using his head like a battering ram or Carmen Basilio grinding a man to a pulp. I'll bet carm loved this fight. You're every bit the hypocrite that I am. This just happened to be a fight with a guy I love and you hate. Bravo

Not a Duran hater. Hater of this performance.

Anyway, Holy and Basilio never did anything like what Duran did to Moore. You know the difference.

Yes I do, you're a fan of theirs.

I don't know if it makes him more of a man, but it doesn't make him a bitch. What if he had got up and just gets battered for the rest of the round as was likely? Then he eats punishment for two more rounds and maybe spits the mouthpiece out again to continue getting his ass beat in the 12th? I guarantee no one calls him a bitch then. When Freitas did it, he was testing the waters, and when they got too hot he checked out of the fight. Corrales did it because the only synapses left in his brain were telling him "Get up."

Anyway, I understand being disappointed as a Castillo fan. Hate Tony Weeks for not DQing him if you want, or shit, hate Corrales. But it won't make him a bitch.

Corrales is NOT a bitch but it was a bitch move. I love Chavez, he wasn't a bitch, but he had some bitch moves later in his career. A few incidents don't define a career but when it happens in one of the greatest fights ever, it tends to be remembered.

He couldn't possibly have finished the round. No need to worry about him carrying on any further. It was over.

Corrales did it because he knew he was finished and it was his only chance to survive. It isn't some fighter instinct to remove your mouthpiece. Tyson was trying to put his back in against Douglas.

I do hate Tony weeks for doing it. And at that moment, Diego Corrales ACTED like a bitch. Sorry, that's what I feel. I was screaming pussy at the TV set and I think it is more girly with every passing day.

Meh, the two sides will never agree on this one.

Chico cheated - in a way that did not physically harm his opponent, like Tito nut-shotting Vargas - in order to keep going to war in a ridiculously brutal fight. The word "bitch" has no place in that discussion IMO.

If he'd spat out his mouthpiece to buy time, then ran away for the rest of the fight to grab a points win, then yeah - big-time bitch move.

Disagree. It definitely harmed his opponent. Financially and physically.

What I meant was what if the mouthpiece spitting had only lead to a longer, more brutal beating for Corrales after he got those extra seconds? It was far more likely than him turning the fight around, and if that had happened, the word "bitch" never would have entered anyone's mind. It still shouldn't have.

Good point. Aaron Pryor knocked out almost everyone he fought leading up to Arguello yet he gets thrown under the bus eveytime that fights gets brought up. If he did indeed cheat for Pryor he mightve cheated for Duran as well. Its just common sense.

Not true here, I called it a bitch move the second he did it. It wouldn't carry the significance it did because the extra time wouldn't have stolen away a victory. Not sure what your point is there.

One thing I have to agree with Mumma ra on is everyone in Chile knows where I stand on this by now. So i'm done with it until next month.

My point is that it seems pretty obvious that the people upset by it are far more upset by the significance it played than by the actual act. But you're right. This is a regular subject and it's run its course.

Ernesto Magana was horrible

Spitting out the mouthpiece did not hurt Castillo, but bought Chico time. Its not like Chico wasnt tryna to fight. Weeks did all he could do as a ref, you dont DQ a guy in that type of fight. Castillo simply didnt fight smart and walked into some bombs.

Financially Castillo was the one who fucked up the next two fights by not making weight. And Chico, the man that he was, went ahead and fought the second fight anyway and got KTFO with the weight making all the difference in the world as Castillo was visible stronger in the second fight.

Dirty tactics are a part of boxing and we all know that. I personally hate the holding. Its a bitch move and fucks up the flow of the fight. IF he's got his bell rung, go ahead and hold. But the RUIZ type shit is terrible and guys like that should be DQ'd. Also, nutshotting when ur hurt is bad as well. Loading gloves is by far the worst as one shot from a cast like glove can do irreparable damage.

It obviously hurt Castillo, since he had a guy knocked out, that couldn't recover in time and to do so had to spit out his mouthpiece and get two extra breaks to recover. It helped him enough to come back. To be fair after Castillo was stunned on the ropes it should have been treated like a standing 8 and then another 20 seconds to make sure he was ok, and then let it continue. That was the equivalent to what Chico got away with. Like Mark said, Tyson was trying to put his back in against Douglas because he was gone and going on instincts, this was just a calculated effort at cheating to get extra time and it ruined the fight.

That Duran fight is horrible to watch. I honestly think more blame needs to be put on the ref then on Duran because he let him do it and he also didn't stop the fight when it should have been. Anyone else besides Duran, especially if this took place today would have been disqualified and probably vilified by everyone.

Even if he spit out his mouth piece and run away the rest of the fight can you really call a man a bitch for trying to survive? For making it difficult for his opponent to KO him? Because that's all Chico was trying to do, survive.

You can't put it even in the same ball park as fouling. People foul to get an edge, you spit out your mouthpiece when you're quitting or surviving. Chico was surviving.