I'm not talking about their 1989 fight, which, to me, meant little. I'm talking about their third encounter at 147, which would've happened in 1981. Duran beat Leonard in the first fight but Leonard reversed the result in the second fight. To me, it was the result of Leonard's change in strategy. For some, it was due to Duran's lack of preparation. Imagine, if both men prepared for this fight absolutely perfectly, who would you take?

Duran wins every time with both at their best. We saw it in Montreal. Ray would always give a good account of himself. But he never beats the Duran from their first fight. The pressure was just too intense and he couldn't keep him off.

"Every time"?

The Duran in the second fight was disinterested and out of shape. The Duran from the first fight would've made Ray pay for his clowning tactics in the second fight.

Yup, I don't see what happens differently when both are at their best. He is asking me if Leonard could beat Duran in Montreal, my answer is no. If Ray wasn't at his best that night, he was damn close and the fight wasn't.

Enlighten me if you disagree.

Fighting a more careful, tactical fight would have given Leonard a better shot. More legs.

How? I've never bought that he had any kind of choice. He could make it closer than it was, but he couldn't win. He used all of his legs in the rematch and that fight was closer than the first one up until he quit.

Edit: I shouldn't say couldn't. Padilla really let Duran roll inside, a less liberal ref would give him some more room and the judges certainly loved him. But it's highly unlikely he would deserve it and a Duran stoppage isn't impossible either. He had him ready to go more than once.

Dunno about that. Duran was pretty good at nullifying an opponent's movement. I think he did that to an extent in the first fight.

Leonard wouldve won IMO. Duran was mentally broken after No Mas. These guys are not robots. He may have went through the motions and got himself in good physical shape but Ray`s confidence wouldve been skyhigh. Had they fought in 1981 Ray mightve knocked him out.

I dont think Duran truly was Duran until about 1983. It took him awhile to get his head right.

Leonard gained experience from that fight, I think he'd be better if he did it again. Tough fight to call really, Leonard would probably say Duran would take it though.

No doubt he gained experience, but the second fight was pretty even when Duran was at about 50%. Honestly looking at that is what makes me pretty certain. That's the style everyone wants Leonard to fight and a not even close to 100% Duran was right there.

Prod is right, I should never say Leonard couldn't win any fight. But do you really think Duran would go through the motions with a chance at redemption? He was mentally broken because he quit against Leonard and lost a lot of love in his home country.

Don't you think part of what took him so long to get his shit together was the inability to secure a rematch? I'm not going to tell you who to pick(surprise, surprise), but it's highly unlikely that Duran would have been anything less than a rabid animal with a proper training camp and the chance to redeem himself.

Ray knocking him out is nothing short of comedy. He never dazed him in 35 rds. Yet he might knock out a Duran in top condition? That's more over the top than anything I said.

You could be right. I didnt think of it that way. It sounds simple but I dont know that it would be that simple to shake off what happened. It was trumatic and fuked with his whole ring identity.

His country did shit all over him and took about $2 million from him right off the top when he got back to Panama. He had always been exempt from Taxes as a national hero but that all changed after No Mas.

I guess it would come down to whether Duran could regain his confidence that quickly. As far as knocking him out if Duran didnt have his head in it and Leonard was able to pepper him I dont think its that far fetched to say Ray could stop him. I dont think he hit hard enough to take him out with one or two punches but 15 rounds is a long time.

He was begging for a rematch after it happened, then he went home and had people shitting on him and got depressed. Who else could he fight to get back his honor? That's why it took so long. If they signed a return fight right away, he would have been spitting fire.

I honestly think it may have been harder mentally to come back from the Hearns fight, and he did that too.

I think Ray totally changed his game plan for the second fight from the first. He was more willing to stand and trade in the first fight trying to show who's the boss, which was a mistake because that kind of fight was Duran's game. Ray learned that he had to box smart to beat Duran and I think he did just that in the second fight. I think Ray would've stuck to that plan if the rematch occured immediately, and he had a good chance to repeat the success.

The rematch was nip and tuck. I know I have a demonstrative way of expressing myself. Did you think Leonard was easily winning the rematch? I thought the fight was much closer than the first fight. Leonard was awesome, and Duran was his daddy.

I think the first match wasn't that one-sided, either. You would expect a close fight when two legends like Leonard and Duran face each other. No surprise there. However, I think Leonard looked quite comfortable in the second fight, fighting his fight. Duran just couldn't get the range that he wanted. I think it was like PBF versus DLH in many ways.

Ray's pride, as much as Duran's ability, got himself in deep trouble in the first fight, IMHO. Still, he traded with Duran and survived 15 rounds. I guess that has to be some achievement, brawling with Duran for full 15 rounds(even Hagler, who's great on the inside, did not dominate Duran). Tells something about the heart and versatility of Leonard.

I think their first fight was pretty close. Duran clearly won, but he only won by a few rounds. The second fight, I had Duran winning two - maybe three - going into the 8th. There's no doubt in my mind that Leonard would've swept the rest of the rounds as he was pulling away around the time that Duran quit.

Another thing to consider is that Leonard had only turned 24 the month before that fight, was very inexperienced, and his only big fight up until that first fight was against Benitez. He'd never faced someone like Duran before and didn't have the experience to react to Duran's pressure. A third fight would've been much different than the first - especially after Leonard had made him quit the fight before.

Duran came into training camp for the 2nd fight with more than enough time to train, he weighed in at 147 for the fight, and Arcel said that Duran was in perfect shape coming into that fight (and Arcel - if anyone - would know). If anything, he came in at 90%, but not worse. I think Leonard used his jab (beating Duran to the punch) and his movement better in the 2nd fight and left Duran frustrated. And Duran wasn't able to get into Leonard's head the way he did for the first fight. A third fight wouldn't have looked much different than the 2nd fight.

I can't see how Leonard won more than 5 rounds in the first fight.



Leonard wanted to rematch an out of shape Duran. He heard that Duran was partying and blowing up which helped his confidence. In perfect shape? Not at all, he took diuretics to make weight. Also just because Arcel said that hardly makes it true. I'd say he was definitely less than 90%. Im not sure how a third would have unfolded if it were immediately after the 2nd but it would be more competitive than the 1st and close for either man. An in shape and focused Duran is absolute hell for Leonard at 147lbs.

It was both.

Duran was overweight and spent much of camp shedding pounds too quickly. Leonard also fought a smarter fight in the ring and had much more confidence. He knew that he had fought Duran`s fight in Montreal and still went the distance.

I just think its generally hard to build that level of intensity twice. Duran had built himself into a frenzy of hatred for Leonard leading up to their first fight. He needed to do that to win. He got comfortable after that.

He had the same intensity against Palomino and the second and third Dejesus fights. Duran was an intense dude and he hated Leonard far more after the rematch than he did before the first fight.

I have been reading that Leonard fought Duran's fight for years and I've never bought that he had any choice in the matter. It's like saying Camacho fought Chavez fight, sometimes pressure forces a man to fight or he will get run out of the ring. That's what happened in Montreal, Ray had no choice, Duran dictated where the fight would take place and it wasn't a question.

He had a choice. He couldve used his legs and made it harder for Duran to find him. He admittedly went into that fight wanting to prove his manhood to Duran who had been baiting him all through the prefight buildup.

That's what he said, I don't believe him. He tried to move a bit before almost getting knocked out in the second rd. Duran was relentless, you could never dance against that kind of pressure and Carlos was letting it go inside, holding wasn't an option either. Ray had no choice but to draw a line in the sand and get his ass kicked.

Leonard admitted that.



His confidence was in large part the result of knowing Duran wasn't at his best.

People say that he spent most of him time in camp shedding the pounds, but how much did he really have to shed? He was in camp 3 months after the first fight and he 6-8 weeks to train. It's not like today when fighters take a year off in between fights.

I completely agree with the pre-fight tactics of Duran going into the first fight! He spit on Leonard's sister and said wanted to kill Leonard's wife. He got into Leonard's head and Leonard just wanted to make him pay! And again, Leonard had just turned 24 and fighting a guy in his prime who had already had 70+ fights against multiple world champs! This wasn't Leonard "at his best". It's like comparing Whitaker from the first Ramirez fight to the Whitaker that schooled Chavez. There's huge disparity between the skill and experience of these two versions.

That was probably part of it. The other part was that he had went 15 rounds with Duran already and took everything he could dish out. He knew that if he fought smarter and used his wheels that he could do better.

Absolutely. Right from the start, Leonard made his intestion clear. He was taking the fight to Duran. If Leonard danced a bit in the beginning and then the fight went into a brawling, then I would've said Leonard had no choice but stand and trade. However, it was clear from the opening bell that Leonard wanted to beat Duran in Duran's game, making him pay for all the pre-fight stupidity as well as proving himself to be versatile.


So true. Leonard took everything Duran could give in the first fight, and the second fight was just the reverse. I just think the third would've gone pretty much the same as the second one. That was not the only time Leonard fought that way. He fought Hagler like that, too(and I hated him for beating Hagler back then). If a talented boxer decides to box like that, he can do it most of the time, especially when his opponent is not much bigger, way more powerful or faster than him.

The 15 rounds he went with Duran didn't make him feel better, it made him feel worse than he did going into that fight. Dude was depressed because he just got his ass handed to him.

The first fight was closer than people routinely make out.

IMO, Leonard wins a third fight.

He was up to 180-190lbs and partying like there was no tommorrow. There were reports at that time that Duran was so dehydrated that he lost coordination and couldnt even jump rope properly. He took Diet Pills before both Leonard fights.

Actually before their fight in Montreal the Diet Pills caused his heart to beat improperly and the fight was almost called off. They had to fly in the best Doctors from Panama to clear him to fight.

so you could have had it 4-3 Leonard
going into the 8th?
against the Night of the Living Duran?
Ray should have swept every single second of that fight
once he realized he was dealing with a corpse of the man who kicked his ass in Montreal
but he didn't
/couldn't?
/afraid to?

Roberto is an emotional fighter
If he's not in it
he's not in it
and an exceptional fighter
should take advantage of it

"Handed him his ass!?"

Duran did nothing of the sort in Montreal. It was a close, competitive fight, which Duran won clearly, but relatively closely.

I see this all the time, actually. People talk about this one (& there are some other fights out there, just like it) as though Duran won ten or twelve rounds. It was fairly tight. No one handed Leonard his ass until he met with Norris.

I think Duran won 10 rds, but it is undeniable that Leonard took an assload of punishment. He fought back in every rd and even closed strong. " Getting your ass kicked" doesn't have to mean it wasn't competitive or a knock out. Ray had lumps on top of lumps on his face and was pissing blood. He got beat up.

Leonard did dance in the first rd and then he nearly was murdered by an UC in the second.

Ray was tough as nails, what he endured in the first fight was remarkable. Was he at his best in the rematch? Nobody can say Duran was. Not even getting into the weight cutting, he obviously wasn't there mentally and yet the fight was still very close. Duran was winning the rd he quit in, I just don't see how Duran at his best makes a third fight a replay of the second. Leonard would have to be much better than he was in New Orleans to best the Duran from Montreal.

Definitely handed him his ass, Leonard knows it. It was competitive enough but it wasn't close unless you count punches for Leonard that he didn't land. Duran controlled the action and out did him in every aspect. The best thing Leonard had going for him that night was clinching, without which he'd have gotten it even worse. Duran won 10 rounds, if scored correctly.



Not sure how that is even being debated.

It can't be, you wouldn't be worse off getting run over by a car.

Leonard danced? No way. He fought flat footed all night. He was dancing in the second fight. I am amazed you even say he danced in the first fight, let alone in the first round.

Leonard took a lot of punishment. However, Duran did as well. Leonard was clearly hurt in rounds 2-4, so much that he was almost on the verge of getting KTFOd. Duran couldn't finish him, though. However, during the course of the fight, Leonard hurt Duran a few times as well. It was a brawl. Leonard usually didn't hide what went through his mind or what actually happened to him. He honestly stated he got hurt. However, most boxers would not admit it even after they got hurt. Duran was clearly hurt a few times but he didn't admit that. And just because he didn't admit that, I don't think we should say he dished out a lopsided punishment to Leonard. Both men took a lot of punishment. It's just that Leonard was on a wrong game plan and took unnecessary punishment early on. Without that initial hurting, the fight could've developed in slightly different direction.

I never said Leonard didn't nut up and take his punishment like a man. As much as i hate him, I've spent more time on this board defending him than I have slamming him. Where did I say it wasn't competitive?

He was badly hurt in the 2nd and I believe it was towards the end of the 9th that Duran rocked him again with like a 5 punch combination. It's a testament to Ray's toughness & skills that he survived the pounding and fired back. But if you're going to tell me that Leonard didn't get his ass kicked I have to laugh. Not many instances when I've seen a fighter take more of a beating.

Point out a moment to me that Duran was "clearly" hurt, stunned, buzzed, etc... I've never seen it.


As for Leonard being honest, LMAO. He was a massive fraud.

I never said you said it was not competitive or one-sided. Don't worry, Mark.


I think Ray was hurt and wobbly every round from rd 2 to rd 4, but 2nd round was the worst. If you mean getting his ass kicked as getting beat down badly, yes, you are right. I was just saying that it wasn't one-sided and if you call getting badly beaten 'getting his ass kicked', then I can also say Duran got his ass kicked a few times in that fight as well.


I'll have a look at the fight again and tell you later.


I wasn't saying SRL is an honest man in general. I was just saying when he talks about his boxing, he is quite honest.

Leonard hurt Duran? When? Duran took a lot of punishment? Again when? Only if by punishment you mean punches that didn't land. If that's the case, he got his ass kicked. I really have to wonder what fight some of you guys were watching. Leonard was flashy but Duran was clearly more effective. He was the better offensive and defensive fighter that night and it was by a good bit. Leonard's defense amounted to him holding, without which he'd have been beaten up even worse. He got schooled by the GOAT.

I think the 9th was worse than the second. By getting his ass kicked I mean getting battered until both of his eyes are black and he is pissing blood. Duran looked like he got out of a shower and one thing that isn't even debatable is Leonard has NEVER hurt Duran, not even for a second.

Perhaps he meant that Ray hurt Duran's hands from getting hit so much. I still find that questionable but it's not as far fetched.

It is perfectly reasonable to argue Duran isn't even the greatest Lightweight of all-time --- hardly the greatest fighter ever.

He's generally over-rated, anyway --- no small feat, given how truly remarkable a fighter he was. Can't think of too many natural Lightweights who, after a reign of several years, can move up & beat a peak Ray Leonard in his own backyard (147lbs). The fight was closer than is being made out, & not for the first time.

The best version of the 147 lb Duran never, ever loses to the best version of the 147 lb Leonard. There's no question about that. Ray was never out of the fight in Montreal, but he was very clearly beaten and brutalized. His going the distance is a testament to his toughness.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if Leonard hadn't beaten him in the rematch, he wouldn't be so candid now about how Duran owned him in the first fight. So I don't give him any credit for that.

Ray is honest about stealing rounds in the last 10 seconds, running, shoe-shining and holding against Hagler. He also has no problem saying he wanted the rematch with Duran ASAP because he heard about the partying. He's always been pretty honest about his boxing homosexuality.


I'm watching this fight right now and I don't see any instances of Leonard moving, through the first half. None. He was right there. He stood his ground or tried to back his man up.

The biggest problem with that strategy is it allows Duran to get into a clinch, where he is the most deadly to ever do it.

Leonard, with wheels, avoids that clinch situation by about 10x. That's a stylistic certainty.

It was a lesson learned. He would have no problem stinking and phayguing it up in a third fight. I'd take Leonard by close, perhaps controversial decision. Especially if it's in Vegas.

You can argue that anybody isn't the greatest of all time. Great. Overrated to you, I don't take that seriously no offense. From my point of view you grossly overrate a number of fighters, oh well. Duran was ring perfection, you can have your jack dempseys.

Duran is a better Nintendo game fighter, no doubt. Ray was the master at getting inside of guy's heads. He certainly got inside Duran's head, made him quit.

If you think that Duran just trains hard for the third fight and comes out tunnel vision, sure, Duran generally wins that fight. But Duran was Duran because he was an angry killer type, and Ray learned more from the Greeks than is generally acknowledged on this board.

Duran is the classic case of Hubris, and Ray would have exploited it from the second they started talking about a rematch, fucked with him about money, location, changed ring size, complained about gloves, facial hair, round length, whatever to throw Duran off his game. If Duran comes in and tries to punish Ray, that's a different fight than if Duran comes in as the calculating robot type. And if Ray wins a few early rounds and starts fucking with him, you don't think that's going to affect what Duran does? I'd say there's a better chance that Duran quits every time than that he wins every time.

That's how Ray beat Hagler, too. Marvelous felt like he had to do more than just tactically win a 12-round decision. Ray didn't. Who won? If Ray would have bailed on that fight, there isn't one guy on this board who would say that Ray wins because Hagler throws away early rounds trying to prove he could outbox Leonard.

The lack of respect on the opinion-front is, I assure you, mutual. No offense taken. I'd have to have a general respect for your takes for that.



I wonder if, given a chance to review that first line, you may reconsider. Surely, you don't believe the gulf in class is so great as to give Leonard nil, or virtually nil, chance to beat Duran in the former's natural division.

How much did Leonard achieve at Welter? How much did Duran achieve at Welter? The body of work right there should be enough to raise doubts about who would be favourite in this hypothetical, let alone destroy the notion either man could, "never, ever" beat the other at his best.

Oh, he learned plenty from the Greeks.

No offense taken. The day you are agreeing with me is the day that I'm worried. I do give you some credit for trying though. Keep up the effort, you'll get there someday.