From the New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09...currentPage=all

This gave me chills from the middle section--about the Lime Street Fire investigation--until the end.

Just amazing, amazing journalism. So many people were complicit in this man's death.

And reading what he wrote from prison--what it must be like to live on death row for 20 years....wow. Just wow. Humbling.

Texas probably has killed many other innocent people. I'm sure other states have but nobody kills like Texas does. What surprises me is that it usually is the bible belt states doing all the executions. You would think xtians would be anti-death penalty.

But strangely, they go ballistic if you are pro-CHOICE

because a unborn child is innocent. just saying.

So if one life is worth more than another, why would it be up to anyone but god to decide who gets punished for being worth less than someone else, and how?

Because they're hypocritical douchebags using religion as a way to just be cool, in-crowd, literally holier-than-thou bigots. Hauler250.

That was a long read, but a superbly written article. Honestly, one of the better New Yorker pieces I've read. It's a truly sad story, but also presents a strong anti-death penalty argument rooted in logic and research.

Great journalism is hard to find, but it can hit hard. I had a lump in my throat and goosebumps for an hour. Emailed it to all of my friends. That piece will stay with me for many years.

Seems like fire forensic technology has a long ways to go. Without hard evidence, there's no way he should have been convicted in the first place.

Then you get the family therapist brought in to testify that his tattoo meant he was a psychopath?? Texas justice is fucked.

So how many have you adopted?

All Im saying is there is a big difference between pro-choice and the death penalty, That is all I was saying.

never heard that response




Abortion should be perfectly legal and in theory there is nothing wrong with the death penalty other than the United States inability to carry it out without 20 years of appeals.

This is indeed a sad article and nothing anyone says can take back the mental anguish this man suffered sitting on death row for so long then marching to his own death, but i still believe in the death penalty.

There are some crimes that deserve death, thats all there is to it. I dont think i really need to go into a detailed list, its not an incredibly long list, but for some crimes i feel you should not be allowed to go on living. Corrections institutions are supposed to correct, everyone know they do anything but, still in theory thats what theyre for. If you are able to rape a child then strangle it, kill multiple people to feed your drug addictions, etc, etc after horrible etc, you dont need to be rehabilitated. You need to be ended.

I concur. That's horrible what happened in that article, but it hasn't changed my views. Certain crimes deserve the death penalty.

I'm not a fan of abortion or the death penalty. I think throwing somebody in a dark hole for the rest of their days is sufficient. No reading material, no human contact. Just solitude night and day. Not that they would know because there would be no windows or clocks in the room.

On a happier note


Texas DNA exonerees find prosperity after prison



DALLAS – Thomas McGowan's journey from prison to prosperity is about to culminate in $1.8 million, and he knows just how to spend it: on a house with three bedrooms, stainless steel kitchen appliances and a washer and dryer.

"I'll let my girlfriend pick out the rest," said McGowan, who was exonerated last year based on DNA evidence after spending nearly 23 years in prison for rape and robbery.

He and other exonerees in Texas, which leads the nation in freeing the wrongly convicted, soon will become instant millionaires under a new state law that took effect this week.

Exonerees will get $80,000 for each year they spent behind bars. The compensation also includes lifetime annuity payments that for most of the wrongly convicted are worth between $40,000 and $50,000 a year — making it by far the nation's most generous package.

"I'm nervous and excited," said McGowan, 50. "It's something I never had, this amount of money. I didn't have any money — period."

His payday for his imprisonment — a time he described as "a nightmare," "hell" and "slavery" — should come by mid-November after the state's 45-day processing period.

Exonerees also receive an array of social services, including job training, tuition credits and access to medical and dental treatment. Though 27 other states have some form of compensation law for the wrongly convicted, none comes close to offering the social services and money Texas provides.

The annuity payments are especially popular among exonerees, who acknowledge their lack of experience in managing personal finances. A social worker who meets with the exonerees is setting them up with financial advisers and has led discussions alerting them to swindlers.

The annuities are "a way to guarantee these guys ... payments for life as long as they follow the law," said Kevin Glasheen, a Lubbock attorney representing a dozen exonerees.

Two who served about 26 years in prison for rape will receive lump sums of about $2 million apiece. Another, Steven Phillips, who spent about 24 years in prison for sexual assault and burglary, will get about $1.9 million.

The biggest compensation package will likely go to James Woodard, who spent more than 27 years in prison for a 1980 murder that DNA testing later showed he did not commit. He eventually could receive nearly $2.2 million but first needs a writ from the state's Court of Criminal Appeals or a pardon from the governor.

McGowan and the others are among 38 DNA exonerees in Texas, according to the Innocence Project, a New York legal center that specializes in overturning wrongful convictions. Dallas County alone has 21 cases in which a judge overturned guilty verdicts based on DNA evidence, though prosecutors plan to retry one of those.

Charles Chatman, who was wrongly convicted of rape, said the money will allow him some peace of mind after more than 26 years in prison.

"It will bring me some independence," he said. "Other people have had a lot of control over my life."

Chatman and other exonerees already have begun rebuilding their lives. Several plan to start businesses, saying they don't mind working but want to be their own bosses. Others, such as McGowan, don't intend to work and hope to make their money last a lifetime.

Some exonerees have gotten married and another is about to. Phillips is taking college courses. Chatman became a first-time father at 49.

"That's something I never thought I'd be able to do," he said. "No amount of money can replace the time we've lost."

The drumbeat of DNA exonerations caused lawmakers this year to increase the compensation for the wrongly convicted, which had been $50,000 for each year of prison. Glasheen, the attorney, advised his clients to drop their federal civil rights lawsuits and then led the lobbying efforts for the bill.

Besides the lump sum and the monthly annuity payments, the bill includes 120 hours of paid tuition at a public college. It also gives exonerees an additional $25,000 for each year they spent on parole or as registered sex offenders.

No other state has such a provision, according to the Innocence Project.

Exonerees who collected lump sum payments under the old compensation law are ineligible for the new lump sums but will receive the annuities. Whether the money will be subject to taxes remains unsettled, Glasheen said.

The monthly payments are expected to be a lifeline for exonerees such as Wiley Fountain, 53, who received nearly $390,000 in compensation — minus federal taxes — but squandered it by, as he said, "living large." He ended up homeless, spending his nights in a tattered sleeping bag behind a liquor store.

But after getting help from fellow exonerees and social workers, Fountain now lives in an apartment and soon will have a steady income.

Fountain's story is a cautionary tale for the other exonerees, who meet monthly and lately have been discussing the baggage that comes with the money.

Chatman said he's been approached by "family, friends and strangers, too."

"It takes two or three seconds before they ask me how much money, or when do I get the money," he said. "Everyone has the perfect business venture for you."

Though appropriately wary, the exonerees say they are excited about having money in the bank.

"You're locked up so long and then you get out with nothing," McGowan said. "With this, you might be able to live a normal life, knowing you don't have to worry about being out on the streets."

Wow that was moving. What terrible injustice was done to that man.

That's the whole point, killing three children by arson is a crime "deserving" of the death penalty, too bad no one did that. This article and the one about DNA paydays are nothing new to me. In theory one MIGHT be able to justify the death penalty, but the REALITY of leaving this decision in the hands of fallible human beings is ridiculous.

One of my greatest fears has always been wrongful incarceration. My mind would not be able to wrap around being innocent and unable to prove otherwise because of some bullshit. That whole article screams to be rid of the death penalty. I would rather 100 guilty stay in jail for life than ONE man be forced to endure that. The life you live will be no different whether these people get death or life.

thanks for the link.

it was a great read.

very powerful.

Yes in theory certain crimes deserve the death penalty

But in reality certain jurisdictions such as Texas have such fucked up criminal justice systems, that it now seems very likely that this man was put to death for nothing

The people that contributed to the innocent killing of this man, such as:

--The appeals courts

--The arson investigators

--His own lawyer

--The bogus "expert witnesses"

People like are going nowhere fast. They are likely not even aware of their pwn prejudices. As some of them even said in the article, "Why would anyone be interested in his case?"

That is why we can't be in favor of the death penalty as it now stands.

One man being unjustly executed is in mind, the worst miscarriage of justice possible in these United States. I cannot as a citizen read this article and not be completely disgusted.

This man was innocent. He was not smart or wealthy or even good to his wife, it seems, but he still did not deserve to be murdered. He got killed by our government and our legal system and it's absolutely sick.

anybody read the book Chasing Justice?

so are quite a few people who the state has put to death.

just saying.

Nuh uh, they have teh sins.

It's like teh sars but only it's like devil stuff.

Arson investigators ... love how they brought in a real expert and he basically owned them. Science always wins.

If you're going to have the death penalty, then when shit like this happens, you need to be throwing the responsible parties in jail and/or executing them too.

That is really the only way to ensure that people will do their job correctly - when it's not just someone else's life on the line, but their own as well.

If you play a pivotal role in the conviction and execution of an innocent man because your brand of fire investigation amounts to so much gobbledy-gook, you deserve hard time. Plain and simple. Same goes for a lot of people along the line.

The Bible is actually full of examples where God empowers man to kill on his behalf. "Thou shalt not kill," translated properly, means murder. War death etc. is not the same in scripture. The cold blooded murderer being killed by the authorities, in religious terms, is a Godly act.

Not saying it's right or wrong outside the Good book...it is what it is.

Then again it's also full of stuff like "Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged," the whole throwing stones in glass houses deal, etc.

But that's where the hypocrisy comes in.

It's not hypocrisy on paper. The followers can be hypocritical for sure. However, you're taking these things out of context somewhat. Glass houses is not the same as cutting someone's throat.

It's easy to be pro-choice, we're all here today to make that choice.

It's easy to be against the death penalty, easy of course until the unthinkable happens. Someone murders a loved one. Maybe your mother, maybe your child. Knowing that person lives and breathes everyday while your family member is gone...Where do you draw the line?

I typed out 3 different LONG responses and deleted all of them because...

1. I've had a few drinks and things didn't come out exactly the way I mean them.
2. I'm delving into other subjects must larger than this.
3. I really just don't think going that deep is worth doing in this thread.

So I'll just leave the thread with this:

"Ya know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, or drive a car. Hell, you need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father."

If you got thru the NYer piece, you may as well read this, too

http://www.slate.com/id/2227222/

Not Innocent Enough: The elusive search for the sufficiently innocent death-row victim.

By Dahlia Lithwick

For years, death-penalty opponents and supporters have been on what now looks to be an ethical snipe hunt. Everyone was looking for a moment at which everything would change: a case in which a clearly innocent defendant was wrongly put to death.

My Aunt was found dismembered in a dumpster. They caught the guy and he is serving life with no possibility for parole. I am anti death penalty even for him. Do I hate the guy for doing that yes but I think of him rotting in prison and I am ok with him living because I know his life is hell and it will be for the next 30 to 40 years when he dies and he really goes to hell.

I am pretty curious what you were going to write. This thread hasn't become what I had thought it would, you can turn it around!


I caught this the other day. It's really a fucking shame but it is so true. I am pretty amazed our country has gotten as far as it has with how retarded our bureaucracy is.

UPDATE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-cMpKfDPHg


Nightline runs a story on the execution of Willingham.

Just read it. Sad.

I've worked with Fire Investigators here on different jobs we have attended. I can't imagine they would get it wrong like Vasquez did. In addition, the police have their own investigators. They sometimes compare notes and what not with our guys.

Flash overs? We were taught all about it in training. To think an investigator didn't consider it or overlooked it is sheer incompetence.

With a guys life on the line, how the fuck did they not get it right in the end? Disgusting.

I've read this piece before - very interesting, very sad.

I'm for the death penalty in principle, but in practice, the idea that an innocent man could be put to death is a very compelling argument against capital punishment.

I agree with this.

The most appalling thing to me, in this case, is that the people who are supposed to be defending Willingham, or at least ensuring that he had a fair trial--especially his defense attorney--have no problem saying that they think he is guilty!

That is fucked. It demonstrates that something fundamentally wrong with the justice system down there.

My english teacher had us write an essay on this for our midterm today. Was glad I got to read it back then Mike. Thanks for saving me the time of going through the 27 pages in my hour and 15 minute class. Great read.

did your professor give you the article prior to the final? it's ridiculous to expect a well-written essay on the article to be finished in an hr AND have to read the article too.

imma have my classes read it when we read "a lesson before dying"

did your professor give you the article prior to the final? it's ridiculous to expect a well-written essay on the article to be finished in an hr AND have to read the article too.

imma have my classes read it when we read "a lesson before dying"

No problem I always like to share thought provoking items with folks when I see them.

This may turn out to be one of the stories that changes the course of history in some way.