This is a real head-scratcher, in my book. What's the consensus?

Inevitably, there will be the comparisons of the Tyson Holyfield fought & the peak Liston. I don't buy it, myself.

Liston cleaned house prior to taking the title, not only against a deceptively deep talent pool, but over a cross-culture of styles & strengths in various fighters, too. He encountered legitimate punchers (like Williams & Valdez), fast, defensively-apt boxers (Machen, Folley) & well-rounded, solid fighters, who lacked a spectacular attribute (Harris, Whitehurst). In his pomp, he was more than just a brute with crippling power --- though those attributes stood out, no question.

He was a better boxer than credited. Liston was fairly proficient with his punches, much moreso than his successor, Foreman. He was more controlled than Foreman, showed greater patience, & was more accurate with his fists (though he did sacrifice a little of Foreman's insane killer instinct, he still had plenty of that, & made fewer mistakes in return). His arsenal was heavy artillery --- from the long, bruising jab (famous for knocking opponents flat off-balance), to the fight-ending left hook & always-dangerous overhand right, he was a one-punch, home-run hitter from either side. Always a desired, & potentially fight-changing, attribute.

Liston was tough. His jaw was plainly broken as a rookie fighter against Marshall, but he did not back down, & did not stop throwing, either. He took serious blows from Williams in their short fights, but proved a great chin & under-rated will to win.

Of course, when talking tough, they don't come a lot tougher than Holyfield. In gruelling contests with bigger, stronger, harder-hitting men (who were very durable in their own right) such as Bowe & Foreman, he sacrificed size, power, & strength --- yet never stopped coming, throwing, fighting, &, in most cases, winning. Winning, when it seemed he couldn't. Physically, I don't think he matches all that well with Liston. He's going to be beaten endlessly to the jab, his punches have much less steam on them, & he gets hit too much. Thing is, he just had an ability to rise, & rise, & rise, when the pressure was on.

Great, contestable fight. I truly could not project a winner with confidence. I doubt it goes fifteen rounds. It might go twelve.

Holyfield, but narrowly, very narrowly. This fight could go either way, to be honest, but I think Holyfield is more well-rounded and has the power to make Liston respect him. Liston's jab is going to bust Holyfield up though, but that's the sort of thing that'll make Holyfield fight harder. I think the fact that Liston is more stationary and prefers to go forward works to Holyfield's advantage, as Holyfield is arguably the faster, bigger, more athletic of the two. He won't use the same sort of movement Ali did, but enough to get the better angles on Liston, and with much better power with equal precision.

Roid Liston up and he's heavier than Vander was.

They were the same weight anyway.

I think a prime Holyfield's speed and combinations would be a big factor. Liston was not a great defender, and I don't remember reading about him in a real dog fight. How would he respond if it got messy in there?

Of course, Liston had that awesome jab that would definitely land with thunder, and a very educated, heavy hook.

I've thought about this fight a lot since it was brought up, and I think I'm going with Holyfield because of his overall quickness. He could get on his toes and let them fly. Liston was more of a shuffler, and wasn't very quick with his hands either. Awesome fighter, but I can see Holyfield getting off first with more punches.

Don't think he could ever knock Sonny cold, but I do think a stoppage is possible.

Liston would beat up the older Holyfield, IMO. 30+, the big edge in quickness is no longer there. The jab would become the biggest factor there, I think.

Evander probably shortens his career considerably with this fight. I havent seen quite enough of Sonny Liston to say whether he would beat Evander, but from the little i have seen (and from everything ive ever heard) the man had damaging power and a hellacious jab.

Vander would win some rounds but lose the fight.

Holyfield would fuk Liston up. I dont see any scenario Sonny could win.

Wow

He`s just a better athlete. He could use his feet to bounce in and out rip combinations. He could bang with Sonny when he had to get his respect and outbox him when he wanted to. I think Liston would score with his jab and land the occasional powershot but but that would just fire Evander up and he would come roaring back with more.

Vander has advantages in mobility and handspeed. Call their durability a wash, slight advantage to Liston in terms of strength. Boxing ability and power to Liston. Vander is not the most disciplined boxer and he'd get outboxed anyway. You make it sound like Vander would be fighting Old Foreman. It's not realistic. Liston beats him up in a fight and wins more often than not. Vander is too much of a fighter and wars with the wrong guy. Whatever the case, his "being a better athlete" just isn't gonna cut it in boxing. Maybe if they were in a decathlon but that's not the case.

Holyfield had quicker feet and he could keep Liston off balance by mixing it up. He would box some and bang some but at the end of the day Liston is going to get hit alot more. Holyfield could back him up when he had to. If Ali hurt Liston in their first bout no doubt Holy could.

Look at the way he fought Bowe in their rematch. Bowe was bigger and more skilled than Sonny. Liston`s jab would cause some problems but Holy just had too much of an all around game. Evander could counter Liston effectivley.

Tough fight but a close clear decision by Holyfield or maybe a late stoppage.

Whoever wins, it could get very interesting if Holyfield starts butting. Liston was filthy dirty when he had to be, & mean as they come. I don't envy the ref for this one.

Very contestable fight, IMO. I don't know if Holyfield has a very easy time slipping that jab, though --- win or lose.

I dont think it would be easy or one sided. I just dont recall Sonny ever beating anyone that was as big as he was yet faster and more agile.

Trying to overpower Holyfield is not a good way to beat him.

You can't see it as that competitive though, can you? Earlier, I noticed you felt there was no way Liston could defeat Holyfield.

If so, how competitive do you imagine it, while Liston retains no scenario to win?

Oh really? When you are the harder puncher and the better boxer you can't overpower Holyfield? I don't agree with that one.

Holyfield couldn't back Liston up here and if he goes to war against the bigger puncher he's gonna lose. I don't buy your scenario that Liston is getting hit a lot more. How? Because Holyfield moves his feet? Is he a pure boxer or hard to find? Does a great jab negate nothing? Please, Lewis controlled the man with a jab and Liston's was ridiculous. He's not slow either, contrary to what you are suggesting.

I don't think Holyfield won any against Bowe but I think that Liston would have. Bowe was bigger yes, more skilled on the inside perhaps but I'd take Liston's long range game all day. Holyfield's all around game? Not even sure what that might be.

I guess you think that Holyfield tap dances all over Frazier too right? A guy throwing a lot a hooks and bobbing and weaving?

The Holy of the early 90's beats Liston. The Holy that lost to Lewis and later does not.

Lewis controlled OLD Holyfield with his stick, but much of that was being 6'5 as well. LL was always just a bit out of reach. Liston would be the slightly shorter man here, which makes him easier for Holy to find. Sonny would have to deal with some serious incoming himself. I don't know that you can just gloss over that part. Fast power combos would be coming his way. Who knows how he reacts in a tough fight like that?

Worth noting that Liston does have an identical reach to Lewis. He didn't have Lewis' height, defense, or pensive approach, either, & this is against a prime Holyfield, not the ageing one Lewis bested.

Even so, Liston's jab was better & more consistent than Lewis, & he was much more durable, with a significantly sturdier chin. Liston mightn't be able to fight defensively against Holyfield as Lewis did, but his reach & jab equate to the always-hittable Holyfield having to endure a lot to punch back.

I think Liston's jab would throw off Holy's rhythm. Incoming would never be a concern for Evander. But that stick popping him off of his anger bounce could mess up his timing.

One thing is for sure, liston never faced anything like Holyfield because nothing like him was in existence. I lean towards Sonny by close decision where Holyfield lands the more damaging punches, but Sonny controls the ring with his stick.

All the arguments have been made, and all have their merits.

I would go with Holyfield, prime for prime, in a narrow win. I think the overall ability to counter and get off combinations inside will offset Liston's ability to get his offense off behind his jab.

I always saw Liston as a great jabber, right up there with Larry Holmes when we talk about all-time great sticks.

However, I thought he was a little weak (or an all-time great, mind you) in putting together punches behind the jab.

I think it is relatively even for most of the fight, but eventually Holyfield learns to time the jab a bit better and his offensive variety is the difference.

I think the young, 208 pound version gets the job done. I think the older, 215 pound version gets stopped by Liston.

I don't think many guys without mobility beat Liston, unless they happen to be 6'5" with their own great jab to come through.

Don't forget to vote, folkes, so we can further get a strong perspective of opinions.

Just the four in, so far.

Toss Up.

Frazier couldnt overpower him. He would have to beat him on the inside with workrate and bodypucnhing. Totally different style than Liston.


It would be competitive in the sense that Sonny would find a home for his jab and he would hurt Holyfield a couple of times. I just dont see him outscoring Holyfield who was just as big and much faster more skilled at midrange and inside. Holy would turn him and fire off 2s and 3s at him. Im not trying to make him sound like Ali. He would take some shots but Evander could box when he had to.

I dont see Sonny stopping Holyfield if they fought 20 times. I just think its a terrible matchup for him. And I think Liston was a great fighter.

The other side of it is the mental side. Holyfield was all wrong for Sonny`s mentality. He was used to guy losing control of their bodily functions when he hit them. He would hurt Holyfield too but not sure he was used to a guy coming back at him that hard and taking him to the gates of Hell more or less.

You are still assuming that Frazier would walk down a tap dancing Holyfield with this incredible all around game. Liston is more capable of doing that than Joe is.

Did you see dancing with the stars?

Saying Holyfield just had more speed isnt telling the whole story IMV. He brought coordination and agility of a smaller man to the heavyweight division. He could move and punch off his movement. Liston was a big man for his day and certainly powerful but he lumbered.

He combined the coordination and size of a cruiserweight with the steroids of the 80's and 90's. I don't think Liston was lumbering, im not sure what you are talking about.

Who did you see him cut the ring against that was impressive? When did he hunt down a good boxer/puncher? Who was his size?

Liston definitely was not lumbering. Too many impressions of him come from the Patterson fights and the Ali fight.. I would take the 1958-1959 Sonny Liston over Evander in a 15 rounder. A 12 rounder I can see Evander getting a decision but I still lean towards Liston. I honestly don't think Evander would be able to deal with that ramrod jab. This fight would be awesome.

K X P

Compared to Holyfield he was. Ive seen a pretty good # of Sonny`s fights and he was a great fighter I cant think of too many heavyweights that could come straight to him and beat him...Frazier, Marciano, Tyson, even Foreman would get the worst of it. Holyfield just has more versatility. He can change it up. Apply some movement, counter and bang when he needed to.

Foreman doesn't but this is going nowhere.

I don't think Holyfield is too elusive for Liston, actually. Seems to me he was never a disciplined boxer-mover, anyway. Often times, when he was hit hard & clean, he failed to resist the call to rise to the challenge. Now, imagine he's facing a man most consider one of the greater all-time HW champions.

Something tells me Holyfield (a fighter easier to land against than some opponents Liston did defeat) is going to have to win this one on guts. Holyfield's defense & movement at HW don't impress me as much as you, ETM.

Failed to resist what call to rise to the challenge? Honestly, he was afraid of war? LMAO, you act like he was Jack Dempsey or something.

I think you misread my posting. I said, "He failed to resist the call to rise to the challenge," i.e. when someone put it to him, he stopped boxing & started fighting, & fighting hard. I think ETM was saying he'd use a lot of movement & speed to defeat Liston --- I'm saying, when Liston hits him good & proper, he's going to go to war.

He's certainly going to try.

Right, &, win or lose, that's going to be a mighty bruisin' for Holyfield.

I didnt mean to imply that this is an easy fight in any way shape or form. Holyfield is going to take some damage. I just would be confident at the end of the fight he would have his hand raised.

Other than Ali I cant think of a worse matchup for Liston as far as mentality is concerned.

I agree with ETM here. Liston would not be the boss with Holy in there, which could fuck him up. Those who are clearly on the Liston side ignore EVANDER'S offense. Liston WILL take.

Evander would know he was in a fight
one way or another

he'd have it no other way.

The polling is firmly in Holyfield's favour.

Didn't look like it when I voted.

Heh, my mistake. I glanced & thought Liston's reading was one, not eleven.

I've got the fence-sitters vote.