This would have been a huge fight...

Kostya is technically sound and punches harder than Pac, But will Pacs speed and unoorthodox style enough to beat the thunder from down under?

i would have to see more of pac at that weight to be fair to him. as it stands, kostya puts him to sleep.

Zoo knocks him out in spectacular fashion.

I don't know about that. Tszyu is definately a very good fighter, but I think Manny can compete against him for as long as it lasts. There is good chance that the fight would end by KO, for either one. Manny has fought only twice at or above 140, but I think he's now comortable at that weight. I would pick Manny by UD. Too much speed for Tszyu and his power is also great. It will be a close one like JMM fights.

What little we know suggests this would be doom for Manny. The recipe to beat Pacquiao is a great right hand and KT would have had the best right hand Manny has ever seen even better than JMMs. At 140 he most definitely lands it and puts Manny out of commission. Manny doesn't bring anything Kostya hasn't seen before but the same definitely cannot be said the other way around.

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Tzyu puts pac to sleep. This is a bad match up. Tzyu had uncanny timing, this dosent go the distance

Manny P is as much like Judah as KT is like JMM, in that they aren't at all similar stylistically.

Tszyu by ownage.

Pac puts Tszyu to sleep. Tszyu's hands were always too low and his head movement wasn't good. His defense was in large part his offense and his sense of range and timing. He pulls straight back pretty often too. Pac would find him flush way too often. It would be a war while it lasted, and Kostya hit hard enough to prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

Your joking right. You do remember JMM not being able to miss with his right hand. Tzyus is quicker, more accurate and much more powerful, with the right hand. Not to mention Tzyu was very strong and had a very good chin. Its more likely Pac gets stopped before the 4th round then him actually knocking Tzyu out.

So a basic fighter like KT compares favorably because he had a good right hand? Fighting JMM was a much more complex puzzle by a long shot. Less accurate than KT? Kostya can punch and Manny would have to be mindful of that but he also has more going for him. Manny's footspeed, handspeed, and awkward rhythm are more difficult to handle than KT moving in a straight line and being predictable. Unless you believe KT is too big, it's a pretty easy fight to call.

I think being contractually forced to weigh 140 the day of the fight would weaken KT too much. Especially with Pac coming in at his usual 146-148.

Pac KO3 Tsyzu

And Pac is pretty much a one handed fighter, left hand thats all. I would like to see this vast improvement against someone other than David Diaz, Corpse DLH and Hatton. Im sorry, his right hand didnt look great in the second Marquez fight. Main reason why JMM is a tougher fight than Pac for Mayweather, take away that left hand and he wont be able to miss with his lead right. Tzyu had uncanny timing and accuracy with his right hand, yes better than Marquez and had real serious power behind it. Tzyu easy in this fight.

A few of Tszyu`s opponents said his righthand wasnt even his best punch. Its just the shot people remember him dropping Judah with. His best punch might have been that short lefthook he threw off of that awkward jab. It was kinda quick and hard stop.

KT was pretty good, he was no JMM though. Styles make fights and there is nothing about KT that is JMM like. He hits harder and that's it, everything else JMM does better. P4p it's nothing worth noting. Manny P's left is more dangerous than KT's right and that's been proven over and over again. JMM kept Manny guessing, KT is one of the most basic fighters there ever was.

Edit: Didn't say Manny P was vastly improved, don't think he ever needed to be. Just a little more polished in certain areas. There is no way that KT puts shots together like JMM or had his ability as a boxer. Good point on Hatton, that guy couldn't beat anybody worth a damn. Manny P and Mayweather proved that.

Yeah, Tzyu wasnt a very good boxer. He was only a outstanding amateur, outstanding pro. Tzyu is more versitle than Pac and if Marquez landed a straight right hand pretty easily, Tzyu will as well, with much more devastating effect. Please, lets not judge Tzyu on his fight with hatton. He was what 37, had 2 fihgts in a 3 year period coming off bad shoulder and achilles injuries, fighting in England where the ref allowed a wrestling match instead of a boxing match. Kostya dosent have to put shots together like JMM by round 3 he will have a big bulls-eye on Pac's chin with his right hand and it will be a matter of time before Pac goes to sleep.

I suspect Tszyu finds him at some point & either hurts Pacquiao to the point of irrevocably changing his gameplan, keeping him quiet, or he flattens him.

Either one may take some time, though, & Pacquiao would have his successes. I think Pacquiao's rhythm & speed win him three or four of the first five rounds, before Tszyu levels him for the count with a pair of heavy knockdowns in round eight.

Tszyu was excellent with his timing, & he'd have to be against Pacquiao's stop-start motion assault. It'd take a while, but I think the naturally-bigger man turns the trick eventually.

- Im going to end it here. KT was a good boxer but his boxing ability never compared to JMM's, nor MAB's, nor Morales for that matter. His best qualities here are his natural size and his power. Both are relevant but no more than Manny's speed of hand, foot and his own power.

- KT looked sharp against Mitchell. He was not at his peak for Hatton, I agree on that point. I don't think you can dismiss the fight as being irrelevant though. It's no less noteworthy than JMM's fights with Pacman. I guess you find the Phillips fights to be too early in his career right?

- KT can't fight like JMM, which is a point that I've made a couple of times already. Stop comparing them, they are different styles. He is dangerous but the reason why this fight is even debatable is because Manny hasn't had many fights at these weights yet. Give him a few more and you will see more clearly.

- Who did KT beat that was on JMM or Pacquiao's level? Nobody. You are assuming because he's naturally bigger that he's better. I don't agree. He won't be able to miss Manny?

No Tzyu lost to vince phillips, Pac lost to an over the hill Morales and a few other guys at lower weights it happens. Tzyu looked good against mitchell, yes styles make fights. Mitchell let Tzyu box. Hatton, who was a better fighter when Tzyu fought him then he was a few months ago has a good style (especially with the ref that night) to give an aging fighter, with a list a phyisical aliments over the past few years hell. If you dont think that Tzyu is comparable to JMM your crazy. Tzyu is one the best, most underappreciated fighters of our generation.

Kostya Tsyzu.

- Manny P lost early in his career, he was 18-21. He had no amateur career, something you clearly felt had relevance for KT no? Let's stick to things of relevance.

- He did lose to Morales but to say he was over the hill is hilarious. He was the number 2 jr lightweight and the bigger man that night. It was a close fight and it certainly didn't end in stoppage despite the fact that Manny couldn't see out of one of his eyes. Morales was a lot better than Phillips, at that point included.

- KT looked sharp against Mitchell, which relates to ring rust. I didn't see it and nobody else did that night. His fight with Hatton wasn't much later and rust certainly didn't accumulate from there. I agree that it was an easier style for him and that doesn't mean that he wasn't sharp. Injuries had nothing to do with the loss to Hatton so you can save it.

-Nobody has ever compared the two fighters until now and there's a reason. If you pick KT, do so on the basis of what he brought to the ring. Not on the basis of what a guy who was clearly superior and fights nothing alike did against Manny.

- What is KT's best win?

Kostya's legacy is the classic example of something being more than the sum of its parts, meaning more than the names on the resume.

That's special. Seriously though, who's his best win? Just curious to see what others think.

Vernon Forrest. Okay, not professional, but a wicked display of science nonetheless.

Especially the third round.

Sad. His best win was as an amateur? That says all I need to hear/read from you.

How in the hell was KT underrated? He was ranked fairly high in the p4p list. Nobody talks about him anymore for the most part because he's not relevant in the game and wasn't an all timer. When your best win is Zab Judah, you probably aren't underrated. I always liked the guy but I find this thread to be humorous.

Teofilo Stevenson only fought in the amatuers and he has a pretty good reputation and a place in boxing history. Expand your horizons.

KT would kill MP

No he doesn't. He's a what if and gets about as much discussion as he deserves. It's pretty funny to me that you think you are informing me of something.

Kostya had pretty good luck timing his right against lefties
it would have been interesting to see
how Manny would have handled his power

good fight
no matter how long it lasted

Pacquiao tko 11.

This was exactly the reason I thought Manny couldn't compete at 135 when he first moved up, and this was exactly the reason I thought Manny had no chance against DLH. However, it seems it's not as easy as it seems to land clean, flush shots on Pacquiao apparently.

Pac is still being underestimated...

you make it seem like he fought a guy with ability at 135 in Diaz and a fighter who wasnt comatose in DLH. David Diaz dosent go 9 rounds with Tzyu on the top of his game, neither does the DLH Pac fought.

Manny is so much faster hand and foot speed wise and foot speed could be just as important here as Kostya has very slow feet (one reason he had trouble with Ricky, if he couldn't pick him off with a right on the way in there wasn't much he could do to keep him away) and Manny could dart in and out all night. Of course he could get caught and stopped but Manny would win more often than not, he's just the greater fighter clearly (does anybody really think KT is top 100 P4P all time material?) and I don't think the styles are that bad even taking into account Kostya's right hand.

Regarding the question of Tszyu's best victory, I've always taken the stance his resume lacks a true superstar victim --- something Pacquiao has had no shortage of, that's for sure.

However, as another member alluded to, Tszyu's resume is one of consistent winning streaks against good-to-very good levels of opposition, without a truly great opponent to call his own.

Nobody fought lefties better than Zoo. Still, it's a pick'em for me.

I expected you would come back with this exact argument. While I see your point as valid, I must add that my first reactions to those two fights when they were announced were quite a common general consensus as well. Now Pac has destroyed both that we say "oh, Diaz was not a good boxer" or "DLH was weight-drained and shot", but before the fights, people had doubts how Pac would do in those bouts. I think Pac has ought fighters at Tszyu's level while Tszyu hasn't fought anyone at Pac's level. That doesn't make Tszyu any ordinary boxer, and I think he was a special fighter, however, Pac seems to have a good chance of beating Tszyu with his speed, accuracy, power and stamina.

I never said any of that. But at the end of the day, KT has come a lot closer to dealing with what Manny brings to the table than vice versa. When has Manny ever ran into anyone remotely like Kostya who was a tough crafty guy who knows how to pressure, has good defense and a monster right hand?

Kostya has seen plenty of southpaw looks in the amateurs and the pros and has dealt with speed before. He knows how to land right hands on lefties and Manny has shown exactly what happens when he deals with right hands. He gets hit with them. That is why Roach does his best to make sure he never matches Manny up with a guy who can land one with serious heat.

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Diaz was shit, everyone knew diaz was shit, that fight went exactly how it was suppose to go. lets not get worked up. Oscar alot of people thought Oscar would win, but no one considered how the weight would seriously fuck him up. People seem to forget as well that Pac was a 3 to 1 favorite over Hatton as well.

Im not sure what the odds were for Pac Hatton but that doesn't take away from the quality of the win.

I hate to agree with you so much cause you're such an arrogant prick.

But I think people's first and last reaction to this fight was "The best punch to hurt Manny with is the straight right. Tszyu had a great straight right." MAYBE threw in "Tszyu did very well against lefties." But I think the tale of the fight would be Tszyu leaving his chin too high and unguarded. Tszyu liked to match timing, range, and reflexes for his defense, and that is the very best way to get waxed by Pacquiao.

Tszyu would land. And when he landed he might very well hurt Pac, but Pac would be having way too much success to change his gameplan after eating something big. Kostya is not JMM. JMM shut Pac down for stretches because he made him miss and made him pay. Kostya would just make him pay, and it wouldn't discourage a guy like Manny who is all balls inside the ring.

Shootout. Pac KO4.

It was marginal. Hatton was a pressure fighter with very little skill who had already had his chin cracked by Mayweather. How many pressure fighters are ever the same again after they get stretched? He was popular but in a pure boxing sense Ricky Hatton wasnt all that.

funny, really funny. If anyone is getting taken out early its Pac. Pac is getting so overrated it is disgusting. The last two times he fought a P4P fighter (JMM) he basically lost 9-3 and at best got a draw in the second fight, at 130, now he is going to 140 and blowing out one of the best fighters of our generation. I guess you get so much credit for beating a string of three garbage fighters.

Please don't quote my text if you have nothing in it to address. Thanks.

Ricky Hatton hadn't degraded in terms of his skillset. His offense was his defense and that wasn't the issue against Manny P. He simply ran into a bad style matchup against a guy who's offense was more potent. He was fighting a guy who wouldn't let him get inside on him. It's something KT couldn't do because he didn't have the handspeed or footspeed of Manny P. Floyd stopped him as I expected, hardly means that 2 years later he was chinny. That wasn't the case and Manny deserves a lot of credit for that win.



JMM was a lot better than anybody KT fought, hell he couldn't even beat Vince Phillips. Manny P- JMM have had two close fights, with people on both sides. JMM's style gives Manny fits, that's part of boxing and every fighter who ever lived had that. To suggest that this makes him overrated is quite funny. I don't think that Manny P blows him out anymore than KT blows him out. It's a close fight that Manny takes more often than not.

Hatton was garbage? Somebody should have told KT that. If you want to compare quality of opposition, KT doesn't come out well.

Honestly you can make excuses for Manny's wins and excuses for KT's losses all you want. KT is one of the better fighters from his era but he will never be the fighter Manny has been. Styles make fights and I don't think the argument of him winning is invalid but some of the things you've said have been pretty unlikely and the comparison to JMM is unreasonable.

The only explanation i gave for Tzyu's loss to hatton was that he was old, and he was, had been very inactive, had several injusries and Hatton had a great style to give an older, champ on the downside fits. Vince Phillips beat Tzyu no excuses he was the better man that night. Your making excuses for Pac saying well his losses were when he was young etc. etc. Considering, i dont think he beat JMM either time, the second fight was closer than the first, lost to a Morales who didnt look that great in MAB 3, whose legs looked a bit shaky in Pac 1, then proceded to go get dominated by Zahir Raheem. In the Morales-Pac 2, eric clearly didnt have his legs and he was saying so in the corner early. Dispite that he was still very competitive and was clearly winning through 6 till his body gave out. Tzyu dosent have any huge names on his resume, thats not his fault there really werent any for him to fight. Saying comparing JMM to Tzyu is unreasonalbe why. They are both very technically sound fighters, very good offensive fighters, JMM puts punches together better and Tzyu is the bigger hitter, both arent great defensively.

Edit.

It amazes me how, generally speaking, a fights' importance can get swept away, post-script.

Things like, "De La Hoya was shot-to-bits," "Tszyu was old, & had injuries," &, "Hatton's chin was already cracked by Mayweather..."

You know what? There is truth to all three of these statements --- but they're taken well beyond reality. Relatively few picked Pacquiao to beat De La Hoya --- for a reason. As recently as eighteen months prior to the fight taking place, a Pacquiao-Hatton bout was considered a ridiculous mismatch --- for a reason, & Tszyu absolutely fought tooth-&-nail with Hatton in one of his better efforts, in spite of what the retrospective naysayers will add. Almost everyone picked Tszyu to beat Hatton --- for a reason.

Pacquiao TKOing De La Hoya & Hatton was a great achievement. Hatton stopping Tszyu was a great achievement.

To an extent, things can detract from these results, but, really, people lose perspective so very quickly. These were all wonderful efforts from the winning fighters, &, in Tszyu's case against Hatton, a criminally-underrated performance from a losing fighter.

Manny has not faced a single puncher with a deadly right hand in his entire career. Prime vs Prime Roach never would have let him fight Kostya.

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