As Kess-Cal closes in on the largest indoor crowd in boxing history, and the largest gate of the year, I am pondering whether this is proof or evidence that guys like Dariusz and even Joe for years were right to say that fights with Jones or Hopkins should happen overseas? Got to figure those fights there would have been more lucrative there and we're getting an indication that the words are actually MUCH more lucrative. Thoughts?

Thats a valid point. Sometimes living in the US makes you forget there's a million other places to hold a boxing match. My only problem is, Calzaghe and Dariusz would've benefitted with some much needed exposure. Had they fought a few times in the states.

I think it's been clear for years that if you want big live gates Europe is the place to be.

Whether or not it would make financial sense for Americans to visit the continent in terms of career management, I dunno. Roy and Hops both did well for themselves financially soaking up US PPV dollars without travelling.

I agree to a point Glock; however, there's been a lot of "Calzaghe didn't have foes" talk and I know that Roy, for instance, fought all contract minimum fights from 1998-2003, fights where he and his foe both were paid from the same $5M or so put. Warren and Cal used to argue he could make 8 figures over there, considering even low yield US PPV. I'm just pointing out it looks like they were right by quite a bit.

I think it does prove that the money is there. However, I think Calzaghe/Manfredo also proved that a US fighter can get jobbed royally fighting overseas which was usually one of the other reasons RJJ gave for not wanting to fight over there. I'm sure RJJ's experience in the Olympics didn't help in that regard either. While the exact opposite occurs to foreign fighters in the USA, I can understand why US fighters wouldn't want to give up that advantage especially in this era where one loss can result in a huge reduction in earnings.

That's always been a fair case; however, when you figure that the evidence is there that those fights over there would have likyl meant 8-figure days for seven figure guys, it makes Calzaghe's argument that he was avoided more palpable.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that.

r/e the getting robbed fighting overseas........we get enough bullshit decisions on US soil that I don't think it's a legitimate argument.

Boxing outcomes are (unfortunately) open to manipulation wherever you fight.

I think it definitely shows champs like Jones and Hopkins should've traveled.

I'd be happy if they never held another fight in Las Vegas.

Casino boxing is the worst. 90 percent of the tickets are comped, and since the seats are free most of the attendees don't show up until right before the main event. So the undercards are basically fought in what looks like an empty warehouse. And most of the people sitting ringside don't have a rooting interest in the main eventers -- unless they put a bet on them.

On the other hand, the arenas overseas are filled with true boxing fans. Most of the tickets are bought by fans who know and want to see not only the main event but the undercard fighters.

That's why the atmosphere is so different, and why fans are there early cheering guys on the undercards. That's why they can also be partisan, but that's better than a flat crowd most of whom have no idea who the boxers are -- they are just there because they want to see celebrities and "go slumming" at a fight.

As far as Hopkins, Jones and Michelczewski, Hopkins couldn't even sell tickets in Philly for his defense against Hakkar. They had to stick Rahman-Tua II on the undercard to generate sales. So if he'd gone to Germany and fought Dariusz, it would've been wild. Same with Jones-Michalczewski.

Plus, the PPVs from over there air in the U.S. on Saturday afternoons. I love watching boxing on Saturday afternoons. Who knows, maybe more fans would've bought Hopkins and Jones PPVs and tuned in Saturday afternoon than they did when the fights were held on Saturday nights.

The fact that is does happen so often on US soil is the basis of the argument. The US fighters didn't want to give up that advantage.

I agree that Calzaghe's arguments have alot more merit now. The real idiots who deprived us of these fights were HBO and their long term deals.

And U.S. fighter who may have been happier winning at 2-3M than risking a loss at 6-12M

The gist of my first post.
Keep winning and you keep your hope of a major payday alive- Hopkins & PBH being the most obvious proponents of this sort of long-range matchmaking.


I wonder what will happen now that the networks are shying away from long-term deals & with DLH fading out as a megafight opponent to shoot for.

I'm with Kim; more attention should be paid to fighters who can deliver gate. In real market terms, Jones was the most overpaid fighter in boxing history.

Besides Ottke who avoided him>? Cal said for years that Jones was his superior and that he would not want to face him. Hopkins? The offer was what again>? To me when u want to prove youurself the onus is on you to concede a little. That's why Kessler is goint to him and that's why Lacy did. Too bad Joe wouldn't face Glencoffe.

Care to find me a quote where Joe said "Jones is better than me."

PBF-Hatton PPV numbers will be interesting to see. IMO, that fight would have sold out Wembley, O2 or any other huge arena in England this year, last year or in 2005, but Floyd made it clear that he wouldn't go there to fight. Now they're going to fight before a much smaller audience on the gamble that the PPV numbers will make up the difference.

Props to Hatton for coming to the US to make the fight happen. He's not going to outbox Floyd so getting robbed of a decision isn't going to be an issue.

That PPV will make the difference. 1 Million to 1.5 cold.

Yeah but the PPV sales will be about equal no matter where it is won't they?/ Why not sell 60k tickets instead of 20k?

BTW Cliff I expect a full report on the stadium experience for Kessler-Calzaghe.

And the 24/7 series shows that HBO isn't going to leave anything to chance. I'm glad that HBO is realizing that if they're going to act as de facto promoters, they need to actually promote the fighters and the fights. "Countdown to Taylor-Pavlik"? I'm looking forward to watching that. I'd love to see a lot more 24/7 type series: I think Pac-MAB would have been an option, with all of the drama with Pac and the storyline and following that each fighter has.

Because Vegas will pay a site fee equal to what a gate in the UK will be with far fewer taxes. Sucks but true.

Ahh yes site fees

Do you think that I save Calzaghe interviews to my hard-drive incase Crold asks for them? I know for a fact that ive read interviews in which Calzaghe stated he would not want to face him. If you mean recently, things change but prior to Jones getting bested by Tarver Calzaghe always conceded that Roy was the man(and he didnt want to fight him). On the other hand, he did to some extent call out Hopkins.

That's funny because I just rewatched Calzaghe-Woodhall and listened to Cal say how much he wanted Jones and heard warren saying the fight made sense if they could get Roy to travel and how they could sell out Millenium Stadium.

I read an interview once where Roy said he wrote letters to get out of Nunn because he didn't want to risk Nunn actually showing up. I don't have that one saved either.

Being fair, I think I remember similar quotes from Calzaghe in the wake of Jones-Ruiz but, taken in context, those quotes would have been made at a time when it was reasonable to believe that Jones was out of reach.

I think RJJ and HOps fighting Calz in a huge stadium all filled with Calz fans and countrymen might be a little too intimidating.

Didn't Hops have like the whole island of Puerto Rico chasing him down after he dissed their flag? He's a man with no fear.

If Warren and Cal said that, they must have really wanted it.

Yeah, but the fight was in the U.S.

PR is well represented in NYC, it's not like he was fighting Trinidad in Memphis....

No, but remember at the press conference in PR when he threw the flag on the ground and hundreds threw bottles at him and stormed the stage? If he's not afraid of that why would he be afraid to get in a boxing ring?

He never said that. He said Jones is a great fighter and deserves to be called the best, but he realy, really wanted this fight and always felt he'd beat him. He has said for the last 3 years he will not face him, but that is because he says it proves nothing and that Jones is shot.

Hopkins/Calzaghe was agreed. He signed the contract and Hopkins agreed to, I believe $4m, but then came back the next day demanding $6m.

Well to answer the topic's question, let me ask how much money are Joe and Mikkel going to earn? Far less than what many will have you believe I imagine.

Anybody here with an official number?

As far as Roy going to UK back in the day, Frank was never in a position to dictate to Roy, which is what he always tried to do....as far Joe himself, that chump never offered to move up to 175......he expected RJ to move down to face him?

The Germany situation was even a greater joke......that is unless you agree with Kohl's offers that had Darius earning the bigger share of the pot.

Well, unlike Roy both DM and Joe did actually sell tickets.

Well, Roy fought on boxing's premier network and consistently netted great ratings for them. People in UK & Germany knew and clamoured for Roy who was respected worldwide as the game's best.....yet no one in America gave a rats ass about Joe or Darius....so to insinuate that these two had more economic clout is wrong.

People forget that Joe was a Showtime network fighter, while Darius was a nomad.

Again, amidst the $$$ hoopla for Joe/Mikkel, how much money will they actually earn over there?

Well, the gate is close to $20 mill already so each will make, announced $5 mill; what options they get on TV money beyond that I don't know.

I had "heard" that team Kessler was getting $5 mill....thus I wondering what Mikkel's own cut of that was going to be.

What, Manfredo was jobbed? You might (might) have a case with Mitchell being stopped early, but the list of US fighters, especiallyof profile, getting jobbed in the UK is as long as the list of overseas Roy Jones fights.





Warren, who I dislike enormously, was in a position to dictate as long as he could deliver more money than Jones could have earned elsewhere.

Same with Kohl. This wjole ego about the 'lion's share' has got in the way of numerous good fights. Fact is, that fight made some sense in the US in terms of gate but massive sense in Germany, where it would have sold out any (any) venue and would have had a TV audience across Germany and Poland of millions. Now, Jones didn't want to travel, whether for fear of getting the rough end of the stick, or whether because he knew DM had some pop if nothing else, so he chose not to make the fight. I'm no Michaelczewski fan, I'm no Kohl fan either, but Jones needed that fight and he didn't make it.







These two make a similar point in slightly different ways. You're looking at the syptom, not the cause. The syptom is the perception that nobody cares and a wider truth that the American sporting public labour behind the myth of US fighters getting shafted on British soil because a. it happened to Jones in the, erm, Olympics in, erm, Korea and b. everybody says so. There's bugger all substance behind this but it's peddled as a way of avoiding difficult matches. Granted, mainland Europe has more of a reputation for shitty officiating / scoring, but being tarred with that brush is, for UK fight fans, irksome. It stems from ignorance and insularity and as such whould not be pandered to. The US is pretty much the centre of the boxing world, but it is not the entire world. Meaningful fights do happen outside of the US. And even though there was more reason to fear a dodgy call in Germany vs Mchalczewski, did Superman really believe that he couldn't? Did he turn down a huge payday against a very limited guy to fight part-timers for less money because he was once jobbed as an amateur on a different continent, or because he thought his whiskers had a chance of getting tickled?

However, that nobody in the US cared about Calzaghe or Michalczewski is patently wrong because you guys are still talking about it now and it was a hot topic 7, 8 years ago when boxing boards were kicking off. 'Nobody caring' in the US would then equate logically to, say, Jones-Calzaghe in the US doing crap numbers compared to any of the villagers Jones fought instead. Again, I suggest this would be a woefully inaccurate statement.

Casino site fees is the only mitigating factor, but they'd have to be going some. Jones - DM in Berlin (fairly near Poland) would seriously have sold upwards of 60, 70 thousand seats. PPV in Germany would have been huge. Calzaghe - Jones would likely have done 50k, again with huge PPV and the chance to put it on at a US-friendly time. And when these fights would have been biggest, Jones was largely known to UK audiences through short press write-ups and commentators' observations from other fights.

The fights might take some more making but the rewards are definitely there. The fact that they weren't / still aren't being made is down to a number of factors but the general US unwillingness to travel is definitely one of the most significant, and in doing so fighters are often short-changing themselves and the fans.

Virgil Hill made million dollar purses fighting both Maske and DM in Germany vs 100K ones in the US.............food for thought. I think guys like Roy figured they made enough already per fight and didn't have to risk it.

He really didn't though. I wish it would have happend but it didn't really affect his career and DM needed that fight more. Ricky Hatton came here to make the fight with Floyd and look at the support he's received. To me these guys could have worked something out if they wanted to. It depends on the particular instance and who has more or less to gain.



I thought he offered less than that. Hopkins did say he would and then he wouldn't but all in all I still think that Joe should have been the one to travel as he had more to prove. Sometimes you have to sacrifice here and there to be on top. Because if he beats a top guy he can then be in their position. From the financial aspect of fighting in the UK sure I bet it would do better at the live gate but again I think you can only dictate after you prove your worth as a fighter. If that's what Joe cared about that is.

Lets dispel the ridiculous notion that Joe was avoided by anyone not named Ottke. And yes Joe pulled out of the Glencoffe fight with an "injury". He was a lame duck for years.

I should clarify.

Jones was the one claiming pre-eminence, Michalczewski was clearly sitting in Germany milking cash. In the wider shceme of things, that much was / is obvious. However, Michalczewski wasn't playing in the same stratosphere of greatness as Jones claimed to be / is being claimed to have been, so he didn't need the career justification of a Jones fight. Jones, by contrast, could have done a truck load by fighting and beating the only other belt holder, the lineal title holder, a puncher and the only major name at light-heavy he never faced. The fact that he could have made an absolute packet doing so is almost incedental.

Hatton's made the transition across the Atlantic because he speaks English and he's so personable. DM's English was distinctly ordinary.

Some of the boxers not getting big draws in the US should go overseas like Winky did.

A main event being overseas would only be a good look if one of the fighters was from that over there, as is in this case.

Run that past me again

If one of the fighters was from the country where the fight took place, the fight would sell.

I think back in the day when Prince Naseem was champ he could've had even larger fights in the UK.

He claimed he was gonna wipe out all American fighters so I think he should've had some top fighters go over there and make it a big country mega fight.