The Hawk vs The Pacman, war of the century Options

[SpontaneousFury]

First you need to reread my post. I am saying that you cannot establish an argument of superior boxing skills on the likes of DLH, Hatton and Diaz. Pryor would have looked like Willie Pep + SRR against those guys when they were at the same state they were in when Manny fought them.

And I am not saying Pryor holds every advantage. I said he doesn't hold a single CLEAR advantage. WTF does that mean? It means the edge in those categories are arguable or toss ups. Then I mentioned the categories that I believe Pryor holds a CLEAR edge. I disagree that Pac has better endurance, foot movement or head movement. You don't. Sadly for you, you are wrong and I am right.

As for Cervantes and Arguello you are reaching. The Arguello wins are better than the Morales wins. Alexis wasn't shot, Erik was. You have to be some sort of special category of nuthugger to call Cervantes past his prime while giving Manny credit for Hatton and Oscar. If Cervantes was past his prime Oscar was buried in his grave.

K X P

Im not sure how Hatton was past his prime, Cervantes obviously was. The AA wins are solid though undoubtedly he was not the same fighter at 140lbs. They were quality wins though. EM was not shot in either of the first two fights though he was diminished, not unlike AA. Arguello's power threat though provided a different element.

It would be a good fight but you have a habit of selling Manny short for whatever reason. Saying Pryor could go 15 rounds as some kind of advantage is a joke no? Pryor trained for 15 round fights, im not sure how you can use that against a guy who fights 12 round fights. Manny was quicker of hand and foot, he also has better head movement. Pryor could move well on his feet though but his boxing ability is not nearly what you are suggesting. It would be a tight fight, they would be pretty evenly matched. The clear advantages you see for Pryor did not exist.

[K X P]

Im not sure how Hatton was past his prime, Cervantes obviously was. The AA wins are solid though undoubtedly he was not the same fighter at 140lbs. They were quality wins though. EM was not shot in either of the first two fights though he was diminished, not unlike AA. Arguello's power threat though provided a different element.

It would be a good fight but you have a habit of selling Manny short for whatever reason. Saying Pryor could go 15 rounds as some kind of advantage is a joke no? Pryor trained for 15 round fights, im not sure how you can use that against a guy who fights 12 round fights. Manny was quicker of hand and foot, he also has better head movement. Pryor could move well on his feet though but his boxing ability is not nearly what you are suggesting. It would be a tight fight, they would be pretty evenly matched. The clear advantages you see for Pryor did not exist.

Well the point of mentioning 15 round fights, is I pick for either possibility when you compare guys from the 15 round era to guys now. I've been doing it for quite some time and it has nothing to do with putting anything for or against anyone. I don't see all this quickness of hand and foot Manny has at 140 over Pryor. On what basis? On watching him bludgeon Hatton? I am not sold. Manny isn't fighting guys who laid their best in the ring long ago in wars against other guys and had those wins overhyped or against average guys from whom he could cherrypick straps. I'm also assuming he is not fighting Pryor at the right time like how he caught DLH, Hatton and is now catching Cotto. I am assuming he is fighting the man at 140 at the top of his game and I am under the assumption its not at some ludicrous catchweight that gives Manny the edge his fan club pretend is a disadvantage. If I'm wrong, let me know and I'll change my pick. For instance if this is the Pryor who fought Bobby Jo Young and I'm supposed to put THAT Pryor in against Manny and pretend it was prime Aaron Pryor let me know. I was assuming I could look at this matchup without the Manny goggles.

K X P

This post has been edited by K X P: Nov 8 2009, 06:00 PM

[SpontaneousFury]

Well the point of mentioning 15 round fights, is I pick for either possibility when you compare guys from the 15 round era to guys now. I've been doing it for quite some time and it has nothing to do with putting anything for or against anyone. I don't see all this quickness of hand and foot Manny has at 140 over Pryor. On what basis? On watching him bludgeon Hatton? I am not sold. Manny isn't fighting guys who laid their best in the ring long ago in wars against other guys and had those wins overhyped or against average guys from whom he could cherrypick straps. I'm also assuming he is not fighting Pryor at the right time like how he caught DLH, Hatton and is now catching Cotto. I am assuming he is fighting the man at 140 at the top of his game and I am under the assumption its not at some ludicrous catchweight that gives Manny the edge his fan club pretend is a disadvantage. If I'm wrong, let me know and I'll change my pick. For instance if this is the Pryor who fought Bobby Jo Young and I'm supposed to put THAT Pryor in against Manny and pretend it was prime Aaron Pryor let me know. I was assuming I could look at this matchup without the Manny goggles.

Since 15 round fights don't take place anymore, it's not really something you can penalize modern fighters for. Certainly somebody who struggles in terms of their stamina, it would be questionable how they would deal with 15 rounds but there are a lot of guys fighting today who I think could go 15.

AA was no more in his prime for Pryor than was MAB, Marquez or Morales for Pacquiao. If you want to talk about what Manny has done above 130lbs, yeah I agree he hasn't fought there very long but I don't think he's given any reason to believe he isn't legitimate there. You are kinda reach by looking to discredit Manny's wins. Throw the DLH fight out the window, even though DLH was trying to pick on the little guy. Cotto is unquestionably one of the top welters, top 3 at worst really and he's beaten all save for a guy who was proven to be a cheater in his next fight. I mean really, caught Hatton at the right time? I don't even know how you can come from that angle.

It's funny that you give Pryor plenty of credit for AA at 140lbs and worst yet Cervantes at that point but have any excuse for every pacquiao victory. Whatever man, clearly you aren't a fan but that doesn't mean you are without bias.

There is no doubt that Pacquiao Pryor would make for an excellent fight. Both have similarities and perhaps slight edges in certain areas. Manny certainly mixes movement with aggression better than Pryor but Aaron's relentlessness and chin make this top notch.

What did Pryor do that Pacquiao wouldn't have?

[The Sly Fox]

Pacquiao has excellent 12-round endurance (especially considering his often-high output) & probably wouldn't have a problem if it was required of him to train for fifteen-rounders.

[Cincere]

I give the edge to AP, and a definite edge if Panama Lewis works his corner.

[BigBENisGod]

Is Cervantes still alive?

If he is I`d take him over Hatton.


Right now.

As long as one of his lungs is functioning he`ll have enough. Its not like Ricky is going to outbox him.

[K X P]

Since 15 round fights don't take place anymore, it's not really something you can penalize modern fighters for. Certainly somebody who struggles in terms of their stamina, it would be questionable how they would deal with 15 rounds but there are a lot of guys fighting today who I think could go 15.

AA was no more in his prime for Pryor than was MAB, Marquez or Morales for Pacquiao. If you want to talk about what Manny has done above 130lbs, yeah I agree he hasn't fought there very long but I don't think he's given any reason to believe he isn't legitimate there. You are kinda reach by looking to discredit Manny's wins. Throw the DLH fight out the window, even though DLH was trying to pick on the little guy. Cotto is unquestionably one of the top welters, top 3 at worst really and he's beaten all save for a guy who was proven to be a cheater in his next fight. I mean really, caught Hatton at the right time? I don't even know how you can come from that angle.

It's funny that you give Pryor plenty of credit for AA at 140lbs and worst yet Cervantes at that point but have any excuse for every pacquiao victory. Whatever man, clearly you aren't a fan but that doesn't mean you are without bias.

There is no doubt that Pacquiao Pryor would make for an excellent fight. Both have similarities and perhaps slight edges in certain areas. Manny certainly mixes movement with aggression better than Pryor but Aaron's relentlessness and chin make this top notch.

What did Pryor do that Pacquiao wouldn't have?

This is my point the other way around. What did Manny have that Pryor didn't other than being a southpaw? They were both fast, aggressive, could move, could hit but Pryor threw more, he had more stamina and he was proven at the weight. I see a great fight but Pryor wins each and everytime and all Manny's fans could then claim it was just like the Arguello win where Manny was this much smaller guy etc. etc.

I completely disagree that Arguello was as gone as Morales. Arguello didn't get whitewashed by a guy who has done nothing since the way El Terrible was by Raheem. He didn't go through all these hellacious wars the way Terrible went and even MAB went although I give Manny full credit for the first MAB win where MAB was probably just leaving his peak. Cervantes was handling his business until he ran into the Hawk and was probably where MAB was in fight 1 with the Pacman. A good, fighter who could handle business against just about anybody and be in it against just about anybody except the one guy who stopped his run - a guy who just had too much physicality, toughness, aggression, speed, power, stamina and killer instinct. And if you don't think a criticism of Hatton's ability prior to the fight is warranted I don't know what to say. My pick was he would either win late or lose early and that was based squarely on how vulnerable he'd been looking against guys who didn't have KO power let alone a monster like Pac.

K X P

This post has been edited by K X P: Nov 9 2009, 11:05 AM

[SpontaneousFury]

This is my point the other way around. What did Manny have that Pryor didn't other than being a southpaw? They were both fast, aggressive, could move, could hit but Pryor threw more, he had more stamina and he was proven at the weight. I see a great fight but Pryor wins each and everytime and all Manny's fans could then claim it was just like the Arguello win where Manny was this much smaller guy etc. etc.

I completely disagree that Arguello was as gone as Morales. Arguello didn't get whitewashed by a guy who has done nothing since the way El Terrible was by Raheem. He didn't go through all these hellacious wars the way Terrible went and even MAB went although I give Manny full credit for the first MAB win where MAB was probably just leaving his peak. Cervantes was handling his business until he ran into the Hawk and was probably where MAB was in fight 1 with the Pacman. A good, fighter who could handle business against just about anybody and be in it against just about anybody except the one guy who stopped his run - a guy who just had too much physicality, toughness, aggression, speed, power, stamina and killer instinct. And if you don't think a criticism of Hatton's ability prior to the fight is warranted I don't know what to say. My pick was he would either win late or lose early and that was based squarely on how vulnerable he'd been looking against guys who didn't have KO power let alone a monster like Pac.

As I said, I think Manny these days stands in front of his opponent at lot less than Pryor did. He works angles better and he's got quicker hands and feet. If Pryor threw more, it wasn't by much and if he had better stamina, it wasn't by much. Pacquiao has shown less than great stamina the few times he really struggled to make weight, that's about it.

I don't see how you can even compare Pacquiao to AA who couldn't keep up with the speed and activity. Not to mention he was not a mobile guy, hugely different dynamics here.

AA looked diminished by that point, I've never even heard anybody argue otherwise. I think Pryor deserves credit for the wins but it seems you believe he deserves considerably more so. EM lost to Raheem what 8-4? Looked bad but it was a new weight, he looked like he hadn't trained and Raheem fought very negatively. When Morales returned to jr lightweight for the rematch, he appeared considerably better than the guy who showed up for Raheem. Though there is no doubt, he was showing effects from his wars. Cervantes was at the same point as MAB? Really? What was he like 40 years old? Im not sure how you can say that, honestly.

Whether you picked Hatton to lose or not, doesn't really detract from what I'm saying. I thought Hatton looked solid still.

[BigBENisGod]

Take your pants off.

[The Sly Fox]

This has taken an interesting turn...

[MBA Dog]

Is Cervantes still alive?

If he is I`d take him over Hatton.

Is Roy Campanella still alive? I'd take him over 98% of Pryor's competition.

[MBA Dog]

Cervantes was handling his business until he ran into the Hawk and was probably where MAB was in fight 1 with the Pacman. A good, fighter who could handle business against just about anybody and be in it against just about anybody except the one guy who stopped his run - a guy who just had too much physicality, toughness, aggression, speed, power, stamina and killer instinct.

"Except the one guy who stopped his run"? How long was this run? I seem to remember him losing to 17 year old a few years earlier while Cervantes was still in his 30s.

And if Pryor was really as good you think he was, why didn't he just move up in weight to where the real competition was?