1493 replies to this topic

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 13 September 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Let's continue this discussion when both Nadal and Federer is not active any more.

I was at the Ravens game today. Did they both retire?

[RayTheBest]

Borg couldn't hit like Novak because of the equipment. The technique of swing is totally different now compared to the old times, and that is due to the evolution of equipment. Nadal can never play his trademark forehand like he does if given a wooden racquet. Also, H2H is one of the data to look at, but we should read into hidden bits to get better picture out of it and you are just not doing that.

If Nadal achieves some more amazing things in the coming years, he will easily surpass Federer and stand alone as the greatest ever. As of now, all I can say is he is well positioned for that.

Edited by RayTheBest, 15 September 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 15 September 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Borg couldn't hit like Novak because of the equipment. The technique of swing is totally different now compared to the old times, and that is due to the evolution of equipment. Nadal can never play his trademark forehand like he does if given a wooden racquet. Also, H2H is one of the data to look at, but we should read into hidden bits to get better picture out of it and you are just not doing that.

If Nadal achieves some more amazing things in the coming years, he will easily surpass Federer and stand alone as the greatest ever. As of now, all I can say is he is well positioned for that.

Borg wasn't one of the harder hitters in his day with their equipment. Novak most certainly would have been. Rafael will never have to worry about playing with a wooden racket, if he did he could still hit topspin and it would be more wicked than anyone else's. Djokovic would still be the greatest returner of serve there has ever been except he would be returning 95 mph serves. Would the inferior rackets dull his reflexes? I don't think they would.

H2H is the only thing we've discussed. You're too thick headed to admit that it's overwhelmingly in Nadal's favor. LOL

If passing Federer is all he needs to do. He's the greatest already.

[RayTheBest]

Modern swing technique gives players effortless power. That swing is possible because of the equipment. If we bring players of 60s and 70s to the present environment, they would've hit the ball just as hard.

Nadal hasn't surpassed Federer. He is at level with Fed at best, and it will take minimum 2 years before he has done enough to say he has surpassed Federer.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 15 September 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Modern swing technique gives players effortless power. That swing is possible because of the equipment. If we bring players of 60s and 70s to the present environment, they would've hit the ball just as hard.

Nadal hasn't surpassed Federer. He is at level with Fed at best, and it will take minimum 2 years before he has done enough to say he has surpassed Federer.

LOL, so the individual has nothing to do with it? Bjorn Borg didn't hit as hard as his contemporaries, but give him a modern racket and he'll be right with the top guys now? That's a new level of dumb.

Nadal is greater than Federer. He owns him.

[ScotTheRoc]

How would Patrick Rafter fared against todays top players?

[YellowLorrySlow]

I'd think he'd be in the top 10, hard to imagine him winning those two US Opens though.

[ScotTheRoc]

Top 10 sounds about right.  He was red hot for a little while there, winning two US Opens.  He also beat Federer three times, although Roger was a pup at that time.

Funny, you guys had a long running thread about which sport was mentally tougher, boxing or golf.  For me, tennis would be the most taxing.

[RayTheBest]

YellowLorrySlow, on 15 September 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

LOL, so the individual has nothing to do with it? Bjorn Borg didn't hit as hard as his contemporaries, but give him a modern racket and he'll be right with the top guys now? That's a new level of dumb.

Nadal is greater than Federer. He owns him.

Now you are making things up. Where did I say Borg would hit as hard as any top guys? Also, some top guys hit harder. Berdych, Tsonga, Del Potro, these guys hit harder than other top 10ers. Borg wouldn't hit as hard those guys. No way.

There are guys who hit harder and there are guys who don't hit as hard but make good shot selections. If Borg was playing today, he would've got more physical training which would've made him stronger and the racquet would give him extra bit of power. That will give him an average top 10 level power and then with his footwork and all other skills, he would've competed just as well now as he did. Power tennis really started since Lendl, so I guess we didn't have big hitters who hit as hard as the giant players of modern days back in the old days, but the old generations would still have enough power to compete effectively with modern training and equipment. In general, they would hit as hard as the modern player of their physical size.

Equipment also changes approach of players. If the modern players were to play in the 70s, they wouldn't play like they do today.

[sunfish]

Couple of questions.

If you're calling Nadal GOAT, are you dropping Laver from the discussion or are they too far apart to compare?

Gary Player got interviewed a couple of years ago and said equipment meant he could hit the ball further in his 60s than in his 30s.

Not saying it would make Bjorg or whoever a destroyer. Just interesting to note.

Prime non-injured Nadal must be about the toughest matchup of all time. If he loses on clay it surprises me more than any other upset in sports.

[YellowLorrySlow]

ScotTheRoc, on 15 September 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Top 10 sounds about right.  He was red hot for a little while there, winning two US Opens.  He also beat Federer three times, although Roger was a pup at that time.

Funny, you guys had a long running thread about which sport was mentally tougher, boxing or golf.  For me, tennis would be the most taxing.

Tennis could well be a distant second to Golf.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 15 September 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Now you are making things up. Where did I say Borg would hit as hard as any top guys? Also, some top guys hit harder. Berdych, Tsonga, Del Potro, these guys hit harder than other top 10ers. Borg wouldn't hit as hard those guys. No way.

There are guys who hit harder and there are guys who don't hit as hard but make good shot selections. If Borg was playing today, he would've got more physical training which would've made him stronger and the racquet would give him extra bit of power. That will give him an average top 10 level power and then with his footwork and all other skills, he would've competed just as well now as he did. Power tennis really started since Lendl, so I guess we didn't have big hitters who hit as hard as the giant players of modern days back in the old days, but the old generations would still have enough power to compete effectively with modern training and equipment. In general, they would hit as hard as the modern player of their physical size.

Equipment also changes approach of players. If the modern players were to play in the 70s, they wouldn't play like they do today.

LOL, I never make shit up. You said it on THIS page for God's sake.

Really? The equipment has changed since the 70's? That's about as enlightening as your predictions of Novak, Nadal or Murray to win Grand Slams. Man do I miss my sleeping emoticon, because I would have dropped 10 on them here.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 15 September 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Borg couldn't hit like Novak because of the equipment.

Christ Ray, you can't even keep up with your own gibberish?

[RayTheBest]

YellowLorrySlow, on 16 September 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

Christ Ray, you can't even keep up with your own gibberish?

That's very different from saying Borg would've hit as hard as Djokovic. However, his swing technique would've been different and he would hit like Djokovic, who knows how hard but he would have had average top player level power. Also, even if Borg was give the modern racquet, he wouldn't have been able to hit as hard as Isner, Berdych, Tsonga, Del Potro, etc. He wouldn't be able to hit heavy topspin like Nadal does either. However, he would've hit the ball hard enough to be a top player.

I will drop a sleeping emoticon for us. Let's end it here.


If you want to use it in the future, this is the URL for it: http://i74.servimg.c.../44/sleep10.jpg

[RayTheBest]

I've actually found exactly the same one we had.



URL: http://i74.servimg.c...44/sleepi10.jpg

[RayTheBest]

sunfish, on 16 September 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Couple of questions.

If you're calling Nadal GOAT, are you dropping Laver from the discussion or are they too far apart to compare?

Gary Player got interviewed a couple of years ago and said equipment meant he could hit the ball further in his 60s than in his 30s.

Not saying it would make Bjorg or whoever a destroyer. Just interesting to note.

Prime non-injured Nadal must be about the toughest matchup of all time. If he loses on clay it surprises me more than any other upset in sports.

I think Laver is in the same group as Federer, Nadal and Sampras. They are the top 4 of all time.

The improvement in racquet technology has definitely enabled us to produce more power. A guy in his mid-60s in my tennis club hits the forehand hard enough to keep up with me. Obviously, he is still in good health, but I have quite a powerful forehand (I am a fit 40 yo, nearly 6 foot tall and weigh around 176 lbs. I currently use Pro Staff 6.1 90 BLX) and his powerful Prince EXO3 Red is helping him to stay in the rallies against me. Without that racquet, he wouldn't be able to do that.

Just have a look at this video from the 80s. If Borg can play like that with that racquet, he would play like Djokovic and others if he was active now. I own a Dunlop Kevla racquet from the 80s, similar head size to what Borg is using here. It is way smaller than Sampras' PS 6.0 85( I have that as well), a racquet no modern players even dare to play with. It's amazing these guys play like this with their racquets. It's also amazing how much topspin Borg generates with that frame. As you can see, he's matching Lendl's power quite well here.

https://www.youtube....h?v=yyuiEzBb7hk

Edited by RayTheBest, 16 September 2013 - 10:53 PM.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 16 September 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

That's very different from saying Borg would've hit as hard as Djokovic. However, his swing technique would've been different and he would hit like Djokovic, who knows how hard but he would have had average top player level power. Also, even if Borg was give the modern racquet, he wouldn't have been able to hit as hard as Isner, Berdych, Tsonga, Del Potro, etc. He wouldn't be able to hit heavy topspin like Nadal does either. However, he would've hit the ball hard enough to be a top player.

I will drop a sleeping emoticon for us. Let's end it here.


If you want to use it in the future, this is the URL for it: http://i74.servimg.c.../44/sleep10.jpg

No, it's not very different than saying Borg would have hit as hard as Djokovic, it was in response to me saying he couldn't. Don't blame me if you're incapable of expressing your thoughts properly.You already claimed to have end it on the last page. By all means STFU if you don't want to talk anymore.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 16 September 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

If Borg can play like that with that racquet, he would play like Djokovic and others if he was active now.

And there it is again. LOL, the only way they are similar is great movement.

[RayTheBest]

YellowLorrySlow, on 15 September 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Bjorn Borg could never hit the ball like Novak Djokovic can.

This is what you said.

Anyway, don't call me out any more on this.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 17 September 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

This is what you said.

Anyway, don't call me out any more on this.

Yes, that is absolutely what I said and it's correct. I'll call you out on anything I like. If it bothers you, don't respond to me.

[YellowLorrySlow]

LOL, obviously I was referring to the power. What did you think I meant? Hitting it over the net?

[RayTheBest]

OK, whatever.

[YellowLorrySlow]

RayTheBest, on 17 September 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

OK, whatever.

Bye

[SpontaneousFury]

I think we can all agree that Rafa would still own Fed with a stick from the 70s.